We are posting this information to clear up the considerable confusion about the Weston A. Price Foundation dietary principles and the “paleo diet.” We feel it necessary to do this because we often hear the two diets mentioned together—“the Weston Price Paleo Diet”—and we feel it very important to note that the principles of these two diets are not the same.
Rest assured, we are not doing this to “attack” anyone personally; we are posting this information because we have a duty to provide accurate information about nutrition.
We are aware that many people experience short-term benefits from the paleo diet, especially people coming off the Standard American Diet (SAD) or vegan/vegetarian diets. However, in the long term, the paleo diet can lead to cravings and serious deficiencies.
We also appreciate the fact that many people who have adopted paleo diets are supporting farmers and ranchers who produce pasture-raised animal foods; and many paleo dieters are members of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund.
We also realize that there are many versions of the paleo diet, some of which incorporate some of the WAPF dietary principles. Nevertheless, the principles proposed by the two main spokesmen for the paleo diet—Loren Cordain and Robb Wolf—have virtually NO points in common with the WAPF principles.
For reviews of these two books, see
The Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain: www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-down-reviews/paleo-diet
The Paleo Diet Solution by Robb Wolf: www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-down-reviews/the-paleo-solution-by-robb-wolf
A Google search for “Paleo Diet” brings up first the Loren Cordain and Robb Wolf websites, along with the Wikipedia entry for the paleo diet; The following analysis compares the WAPF diet with the paleodiet principles expressed in these websites and the books by Cordain and Wolf
| WAPF DIET | .. | PALEO DIET | |
| Animal Foods | Eat the whole animal, including the meat, fat, organ meats, bones, cartilage and skin (poultry, pork). . |
.. | Only lean muscle meats, no added fat |
| Meat | Should be pasture-raised for higher levels of minerals, and vitamins, especially fat-soluble vitamins and minimal hormones, antibiotics and other harmful chemicals; always eat meat with the fat. If the meat is lean, prepare it with added fat. . |
.. | Prefer pasture-raised because it is lean. |
| Organ Meats | More important than muscle meats, should be consumed frequently . |
.. | No mention of organ meats |
| Poultry | Always eat with the fat and skin; make pate with the livers and hearts; eat the gizzards also . |
.. | Skinless; no organ meats |
| Pork | OK to consume when cured (bacon, ham), marinated in an acidic medium before cooking, or with a lacto-fermented food such as sauerkraut . |
.. | No special preparation needed. |
| Seafood | Wild seafood, particularly shellfish, oily fish, fish heads, fish liver oils and fish eggs. Prepare seafood with added fat. Eat the skin of the fish. . |
.. | Wild fish and shellfish, no added fat |
| Raw Animal Food | All traditional cultures consumed some of their animal food raw; so it is important to include raw dairy, raw meat, raw fish and/or raw shellfish in the diet on a frequent basis. . |
.. | Not mentioned. |
| Eggs | Preferably pastured-raised; emphasis on egg yolks rather than egg whites . |
.. | Allowed; no emphasis on pasture-feeding; extra egg whites encouraged. |
| Vegetables | Raw or cooked, always with added fat, such as butter . |
.. | Raw or cooked, no added fat |
| Fruit | Raw or cooked, some fruits more digestible when cooked; add fat (butter or cream) or consume in the context of a meal containing fat. . |
.. | Raw, no added fat |
| Grains | Recommended on the observation that many healthy primitive and traditional peoples included grain in their diets; need to be properly prepared to neutralize anti-nutrients and improve digestibility. Individuals who have trouble with grains may be able to eat them (properly prepared) after following the GAPS (Gut and Psychology Syndrome) protocol . |
.. | No grains, based on the theory that paleolithic peoples had no grains in their diet, and also because grains contain various anti-nutrients. |
| Legumes (beans, lentils, etc.) | Should be included in the diet; need proper preparation to neutralize anti-nutrients. Legumes are consumed as a major source of calories by many healthy traditional cultures throughout the world. . |
.. | Not allowed, because they contain anti-nutrients |
| Nuts | Good to include in the diet after careful preparation to neutralize anti-nutrients. . |
.. | Allowed, even though nuts also contain anti-nutrients (just like grains and legumes). No special preparation recommended. . |
| Starchy carbohydrates (potatoes, yams, sweet potatoes) | Can be included in the diet. Should be well cooked and consumed with a fat, like butter . |
.. | Potatoes/carbohydrates not allowed, although Wolf includes sweet potatoes in some of his recipes . |
| Dairy (milk, cheese, cream, yoghurt, kefir, etc.) | Should be raw, whole, full fat. Wonderful foods for growing children. . |
.. | Not allowed |
| Butter | Consume liberally . |
.. | Consume only occasionally (Wolf) or not at all (Cordain) . |
| Meat fats—lard, tallow, etc | Consume liberally . |
.. | Not recommended. |
| Oils | No industrial oils (corn, soy, canola, etc); Olive oil and coconut oil allowed, but the diet needs to also include liberal amounts of animal fats. . |
.. | No industrial oils (corn, soy, canola, etc). Very small amounts of olive oil and coconut oil allowed. . |
| Lacto-fermented foods | Include with every meal. . |
.. | “Not worth the hassle” and a source of “too much salt.” Take a probiotic pill instead. . |
| Bone broths | Consume liberally . |
.. | Not mentioned |
| Fat-soluble activators, Vitamins A, D and K | Most important WAPF principle; consume liberally of foods that contain them. . |
.. | Foods containing the fat-soluble activators are not emphasized. Promotes plant forms of A and K. Wolf recommends vitamin D supplement. (See Wolf: “Vitamins A, D and K, Who Cares?”) |
| Vitamin D | Needs to be consumed as part of food, in balance with vitamin A. . |
.. | Take 2-5000 IU per day as a supplement, with no supporting vitamin A |
| Vitamin A | Animal form of vitamin A vital to health; vitamin A-rich foods need to be balanced by foods containing vitamin D. Precursors (carotenes) in plant foods are a poor source of vitamin A for humans; many lack the enzymes needed for conversion. . |
.. | Avoid animal form of vitamin A. Claims adequate vitamin A can be obtained from the pre-cursors in plant foods. |
| Calcium | Best source is raw dairy foods; cultures that don’t have dairy foods made use of bones (fermented fish bones or bones of small birds and animals ground up and added to food). . |
.. | Paleo diets provide only about half the RDA of calcium, virtually all from plant foods. Oxalic acid, phytic acid and other mineral blockers make assimilation of calcium from plant foods difficult. |
| Protein | No more than 20% of calories . |
.. | 30-35% of calories. Protein levels this high will deplete vitamin A. |
| Fats | Can be anywhere from 30-80% of calories, with saturated fat predominating. When fat intake is low, balance of calories needs to come from carbohydrates (which the body can turn into saturated fat). . |
.. | 39 % of calories, with monounsaturated fatty acids predominating |
| Saturated Fat | No limit. Saturated fats are critical for good health. . |
.. | Only 7% of calories (about 3 ½ teaspoons per day). No carbohydrate foods in the diet that the body can turn into saturated fat. |
| Carbohydrates | Some carbohydrate in the diet is necessary. Avoid refined carbs. . |
.. | Carbohydrates not necessary. Avoid both refined and unrefined carbs. |
| Processed Foods | No industrially processed foods; eat liberally of foods prepared by artisan processors (lacto-fermented foods and beverages, naturally cured meats, cheese, sourdough bread, etc) . |
.. | No processed foods |
| Fish liver oils | Recommended as a daily supplement for vitamins A and D . |
.. | Not recommended |
| Fish oils | Not recommended; can overload the body with omega-3 fatty acids and interfere with arachidonic acid. Human requirements for omega-3 fatty acids like DHA are actually very low. . |
.. | Recommends up to 2 tablespoons fish oil per day. |
| Salt | Very important; adults need at least 1½ teaspoons per day, preferably unrefined; we consumed up to 3 teaspoons per day in the past . |
.. | Little or no salt |
| Cholesterol | Very important to have enough cholesterol for hormone production, production of bile salts, healing and repair, protection against cancer. For men under 60, no additional risk for heart disease with cholesterol levels up to 300 mg/dl. For women at any age, and for men over 60, higher cholesterol levels are associated with longevity; no need for these groups to reduce cholesterol levels even if very high. . |
.. | Total cholesterol should be kept at 120-140 mg/dl. Very low levels of cholesterol in this range are associated with increased rates of cancer, intestinal diseases, violence and depression, accidents and suicide. |
| Chocolate | Not recommended . |
.. | Allowed |
| Coffee (and tea) | Not recommended . |
.. | Allowed |
| Alcohol | Wine and unpasteurized beer in moderation with meals . |
.. | Cordain allows white wine. Wolf recommends tequila on an empty stomach. |
| Pre-Conceptual and Pregnancy Diet | Nutrient-dense diet, rich if fat-soluble vitamins, extremely important to ensure the health of the next generation. | .. | No special diet recommended. |
NOTE: As of May 2015, the diet recommended by Cordain at thepaleodiet.com is as follows:
| EAT | DON’T EAT |
| Grass-produced Meats | Cereal Grains |
| Fish/Seafood | Legumes |
| Fresh Fruits and veggies | Dairy |
| Eggs | Refined Sugar |
| Nuts and seeds | Processed Foods |
| Healthful oils (Olive, walnut, flaxseed, macadamia, avocado, coconut) | Salt |
| Refined vegetable oils | |
| Potatoes |
As of May, 2015, Robb Wolf recommends the following diet at RobbWolf.com
| OK TO EAT | AVOID |
| Fruits | Dairy |
| Vegetables | Grain |
| Lean Meats | Processed Food & Sugars |
| Seafood | Legumes |
| Nuts and seeds | Starches |
| Healthy fats* | Alcohol |
* Defined as HEALTHY FATS FROM NUTS, SEEDS, AVOCADOS, OLIVE OIL, FISH OIL AND GRASS-FED MEAT
RECOMMENDED READING
Letters on the Paleo Diet
Guts and Grease by Sally Fallon Morell
Precious Yet Perilous by Chris Masterjohn
On the Trail of the Elusive X Factor by Chris Masterjohn
The Right Price
The Cod Liver Oil Debate
BOOK REVIEWS
Tending the Wild
by M Kat Anderson
The Biggest Estate on Earth
by William Gammage
VIDEOS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggr1KkNOBGk
30-35% of calories. Protein levels this high will deplete vitamin A.
🖨️ Print post
There are sugar-free chocolate chip cookies which use an
equally sweet sugar substitute. The food pyramid breaks foodstuffs down
into carbohydrates, proteins and fats. Nowadays, obesity is getting worse and several people are troubled from
diabetes, several individuals are starting to turn to sugar free
chocolate as a favorable choice to the calories and
fat in the normal kind.
Not a reply to you personally, but to this article. I was about to link to this site but realise, to my great sadness, that after about ten years since I first started on the diet mission, starting with Price’s wisdom and effort and ending with AIP paleo, this site is now compromised.
To anyone seeking a path of truth, go straight to amazon and buy the oldest copy of Price’s book you can find. The truth is laid out in there.
Then, research grains and specifically wheat>> glycophosphate poisoning causing the greatest mass gut-shredding and immune system destruction mankind has known, also look up GMO corn and the mould it contains and develops in storage. Grains- whatever they were they no longer are. No amount of soaking grains or fermenting dairy will donate to your best health if your gut is broken. Broth, a gentle non-toxic diet of clean carbs and non-inflammatory foods (AIP paleo) are the only ways to healing the gut. Nature will not accept anything else.
If you want health, go with AIP paleo. Price’s work is now compromised by do-gooder non-thinkers.
Just trying to give you a thumbs up. I recommend watching Dr Don Huber’s analysis on the Glyphosate damage, found a good one , of him at the grassfed conference on YT, and then ran into Stephanie Seneff interviewing with Kerry Rivera discussing glyphosate damage to the guts of autistic children, and many more, but Rivera has been using chlorine dioxide to break apart the glyphosate molecule, good news, (lowest dose possible though, it’s an old water purification treatment for campers. ncbi.NIH has a good paper on it). Seneff has ongoing research on glyphosate. She has found it is replacing the glycine molecule in proteins. EEEEEEEKkkkkk! So I ordered my chlorine dioxide on amazon and am anxious to begin. (lowest dose possible- works better at lowest doses).
I just spent 5 months in the hospital with perforated bowel and I has been mystifying to me as to how I got it considering how picky I am and try to grow my own. Well, we aren’t yet self sufficient in growing our own hay yet and hay doesn’t come with a non GMO label, so I’m getting ready to test my hay and composted manure in my garden, and plants in the garden for glyphosate. May be poisoning myself. Chlorine dioxide treated water can split glyphosate in my garden boxes I hope.
Properly made sour dough fermentation breaks glyphosate apart…How amazing are microbes!
Stop using horrifying soaps, lotions, cleaners, etc.
Most hay is now sprayed with herbicides. If an animal eats the hay the herbicide will remain in the manure even after digestion. When the manure is used to make compost it is killing the plants. I am seeing where the herbicide can last up to five years in the compost. I had made compost from my chicken coop droppings that were mixed with hay. Thankfully I found an article on this before I contaminated all my garden beds.
…”Glycophosate” is apparently not even a word. It literally does not come up whatsoever in the search engine. You are clearly indeed “responding directly to this person” and not “to this article,” as you have literally clicked the “reply” button on his specific comment. Your comment makes literally ZERO fucking sense. …What the fuck does selective-industrial-breeding-for-centuries-wheat, literally wheat at all for that matter, except for MAYBE kamut which I don’t believe WAPF even mentions much if at all since so many other grains are superior to wheat including kamut wheat, and literally fucking ****GMO*** corn… what does absolutely any of that have to do LITERALLY AT ALL with Weston Price Foundation? Try learning to read or something????
“Glyphosate” is a word.
“Glycophosate” is not.
“They” changed the spelling from ‘glycophosphate’ to ‘glyphosate’ so people like you won’t look any further.
It used to be called ‘Roundup’ and was a famous carcinogen with such a bad reputation they changed the name not once, not twice but three times.
Research is free.
You’re welcome.
Sorry Cate. I thought I was replying to Raven.
Why do people like you think it’s OK to be hateful and use such foul language? If you can’t say something nicely, DON”T SAY IT AT ALL!
Why do people like you think it’s OK to be hateful and use such foul language? If you can’t say something nicely, DON”T SAY IT AT ALL!
I think anyone interested in health wouldn’t be eating cookies — sugar-free, gluten-free, Paleo-approved, or otherwise.
I love cookies! I don’t think it’s fair to say I don’t care about my health because of cookies.
I have been a dedicated WAPF fan for six years.
I eat homemade cookies, with real butter. No industrialized oils. No artificial sweeteners. Just real sugar, or one of those less-refined versions — Demerara, etc.?
Not saying anyone should make a meal out of them. I don’t think a little dessert is such a bad thing, though.
Old Chinese proverb says….”Live life like a stream…not too fast…not too slow..not too pure.” I think some healthy made desserts and healthy chocolate are definitely in the “not too pure” category. It’s about balance.
What are all these Paleo fans doing commenting on the WAPF articles? It is a free world and we all have a right to our opions. Its fine if you don’t care for the WAPF postings, but perhaps you should then go to a website you are more comfortable with instead of hatefully attacking the poster and others. Personally, WAPF was instrumental in my recovery from an almost fatal electrical heart problem so.e 10+ years ago. I am a very healthy and vibrant almost 80 years young woman.
I am curious what you mean by “fatal electrical heart problem”. What is that? My husband has these little electrical shock type pains in his chest. Would like to know what they are. He has told his doctor about them but he hasn’t done anything to find out what was causing it.
Shirl is likely referring to bradycardia, I presume.
What I currently have is called a left bundle branch blockage and what I had some 10+ years ago was ventricular tachycardia. Sorry it took so long to answer, I don’t often post on websites so completely forgot about posting this; hopefully your husband was able to get his problem resolved.
Cookies really aren’t unhealthy if they are prepared with the right ingredients. My wife is diabetic but she eats some cookies that I make for her that do not spike her blood sugars. They aren’t even sugar-free, just prepared properly with whole ingredients.
Recipe? As a desert loving diabetic I’m always looking for good recipes.
Everyone has the right to eat what they want but sugar is not good for you that is the addiction talking
I have read million opinions about health, foods and nutrition (including book 200 years old) and the one thing they all have in common is that sugar should be put on schedule one drug list, it’s literally that bad for you.
William, and Vlastic, you both are spot on – sugar, in any form (raw, etc.) is pure poison!!! And it absolutely is an ADDICTION!!! I struggle with it CONSTANTLY in my efforts to eat better – it is harder to quit sugar than it is to quit heroin/cocaine, etc.! My father-in-law likes to justify his sugar addiction with the dumb credo “everything in moderation”. What a joke! By that standard, then heroin/cocaine is ok – in moderation! smh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNr71oGoZC8&list=LL&index=8
is a really good documentary regarding this poisonous substance.
Cookie – a variety of ingredients, shaped into a small form and baked.
Opening the mind to understand “cookies” as being a convenient way of consuming food, it’s what is in them that matters, not the word “cooky / cookie”
Dog biscuits are also cookies
I quit eating them. I kept throwing my back out while trying to lick myself.
…Well then you aren’t very smart.
Obviously, cookies aren’t very nice to eat, but some people disagree for some reason, and if you do agree, then other healthy things exist, like healthy cake for example.
I am disappointed by the lack of research in this article. This is a good site to refer to
http://paleoleap.com/ . Here you will find that the big difference between these diets is the
consumption of grains. This article is based on only the ideas of 2 men.
I believe that is because those two are the ones that coined the paleo diet. It has long since evolved from there but the “faithful” still refer to the rules set down by those two.
Paleo predated both Cordain and Wolf. Cordain received a tradmark for the term The Paleo Diet but he is not the originator nor the authority on the Paleo diet. Also, the faithful is used in appropriately. Also, Wolf has changed his stance from his early Paleo Cordain days and is more in the Kresser/Jaminet camp. This article served no purpose on clarifying the Paleo Diet. The article comes across as a lame attempt to present the WAPF Diet as more superior to the Paleo diet which I believe it failed and only served to drive away many Paleo followers who previously supported WAPF.
I agree. Although I never opted to do it, I researched the Paleo diet extensively, and found much of Mark Sisson’s approach to make a lot of sense. Mark advocates LOTS of animal fats, LOTS of organ meats, LOTS of bones, LOTS of butter, etc. This WAPF article shows either 1) Insufficient research to make the argument the author is attempting, or 2) Deliberate manipulation of the data regarding the Paleo diet in order to make WAPF appear superior. In either case, it renders this entire article invalid. Bad move, WAPF.
I completely agree with this comment, and as a result of Fallon’s inaccurate and unfair representation of the Paleo diet, I am no longer interested in the Weston Price foundation.
I would have to agree here. I discovered the ‘Paleo diet’ via the excellent book ‘The One Diet’ by Dr Doug McGuff. The idea behind the ‘Paleo Diet’ is that it is rooted in evolutionary biology. The two authors referred to by Mrs Fallon can hardly be considered ambassadors for a Paleolithic nutritional plan. That is an absurd premise.
Mrs Fallon’s books are very good and well worth investing in, but in this instance she has forgotten herself and is merely engaging in an emotionally-driven vent.
I am so glad that we do have all of these experts, Weston a Price foundation, Marks Sisson, or Dane, Wolf, because it allows us to see good, Science-based nutrition information from slightly different but respectable positions. As always we need to understand and read the research gathered by these by these experts and figure what works best for us. It’s not a contest but it’s data that we need to study, review and determine what is best for us. Yes it’s hard work, and I’m glad that I have a degree in chemistry, but the information is there for all to read. It work, but your health is important and relies upon doing the work to understand these diets and choose the best approach for you and your family.
I appreciate the work done by all of these good people and foundations.
He is taking recommendations from the websites of the first two that pop up on a “paleo” google search. This is clearly stated in the article. Those sites are: thepaleodiet.com and robbwolf.com
The article also states they realize there are many versions of the diet. Honestly, as an outsider who follows neither diet, I found the article very interesting, and not a slam on paleo at all. People have been interested on the take of Weston A. Price on various nutritional issues for a long time. It is probably important, to them, to make sure that people understand what portions of paleo WAPF endorses and what they don’t.
Thank you Michele; this is exactly the reasoning behind this article!
That is all well and good, Michele. The biggest problem with this article, as others in the midst of the posts here are saying (and I agree even though I am a big fan of Dr. Price), is that when you use only two (narrow-minded) sources to make a point, then you open yourself up to all the slams on this article. From my research on various diets, Mark Sisson, as mentioned by daRenegadeMama, was the one that made the most sense when it came to the Paleo diet.
I am honestly a bit concerned with all the vegetables that the WAPF diet says are ok to eat. ALL plants (vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, potatoes, etc.) not just grains, have anti-nutrients! The anti-nutrients in plants are their only mechanism for survival. They don’t want to be eaten, just as any living thing doesn’t want to be eaten, only plants don’t have the ability to run and hide! And sure there might be ways to prepare plant based foods to minimize those anti-nutrients, but you will not be able to eliminate all of them and in the process you will, more often than not, degrade the beneficial nutrients of said plants! Plus, who the hell has all this time to “properly” prepare the plants for eating? Me and my family sure don’t! Must be nice to be so wealthy that you have all this free time to prepare plants to eat!
Totally agree. I’ve been Paleo for a year and a half and this comparison is way off the mark. No resemblance to a true Paleo diet.
WHAT ARE THOSE DIFFERENCES YOU NOTICED BETWEEN YOUR IDEA OF A “TRUE PALEO DIET” AND THE PALEO DIET SHOWN IN THIS ARTICLE? TO JUST SAY “THIS IS WAY OFF THE MARK” DOES NOT HELP SOMEONE WHO IS TOTALLY NEW TO BOTH WAPF AND PALEO… PLEASE SHARE YOUR POINTS IN DETAIL RATHER THAN JUST BASHING AND BEING NEGATIVE.
THANKS
DAVE
estoy completamente de acuerdo, me parecio poco objetiva y estaba muy interesada en el sitio y su propuesta sobre todo por que estaba encontrando infomacion en español y buenas opciones, pero siento que no estan siendo tan objetivos, al final la propuesta Paleo y la de WAPF son hermanas si no iguales si con el mismo objetivo de volver a la raiz y regresar a practicas mas sanas y limpias no es una competencia tenemos un mismo objetivo, yo sigo el regimen Paleo y estoy abierta a cualquier propuesta que me ayude a sentirme mejor y a tener un estilo de vida sostenible y sano
I agree 100%. This is a poorly researched & biased article. Your description of paleo is incorrect & misleading. Did you give Cordain & Wolf the opportunity to reply? Perhaps Robb Wolf should interview Sally Fallon on one of his podcasts?
This article was written, and researched, via the books and websites of the two main “Paleo” authors and speakers at the time. To call it “poorly researched” is completely unfounded.
Maureen, to call this a “poorly researched” article is spot on! To say the article used “two main “Paleo” authors and speakers at the time” only re-enforces how poorly researched this article is! I have been researching various diet types for over 10 years, including Paleo, and my main go-to source for Paleo was Mark Sisson, not those other two mis-informed sources! To only use two sources for the Paleo “research”, and the two that are the furthest away from the WAPF diet, shows the bias of this article.
The term paleo was copyrighted by Cordain. If you read the beginning of the article (not sure you did, based on your comments) then we are all aware there are different versions of paleo – another way of saying they have changed the definition. Changing definitions is a common tactic of scammers, con artists and corrupt governments. Such scams guarantee confusion and that confusion is richly deserved. It would be nice if those (whoever they are) who want to change the definition also had the integrity to change the name. Is the article biased? Every article ever written is biased. Every human being with minimal cognitive function is biased. Yes, the article is biased. And so are you. This article is not about the version of paleo you wanted WAPF to write. Sorry.
Thank U Angel. I believe this article is tainted by prejudice, using only 2 out-of-date sources, and reflects Many untruths about Paleo that are now addressed constantly. It is always a mistake to narrow your research. Both sides have good ideas; what I Don’t like is panning the other over jealousy!
what are those “UNTRUTHS ABOUT PALEO” mentioned in this article??? I AM NEW TO WAPF AND PALEO INFORMATIVELY SPEAKING, I am only researching diets and nutrition and health. WHAT ARE THOSE MISTRUTHS YOU NOTICED,… PLEASE POST SO OTHERS CAN CONSIDER THE POINTS YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE… I cannot evaluate your criticisms of the article if you do not share what your thoughts are specificially.
ALSO, DO YOU THINK THE ARTICLE WAS HONEST ABOUT WAPF DIET? WAS WAPF ACCURATELY DESCRIBED AS WELL OR WAS THAT SIDE POORLY RESEARCHED TOO?
THANKS!
In previous post said carbs meant calories.
Please don’t post messages in ALL CAPS. It comes across as arrogant and angry and isn’t likely to get a polite reply. If you are researching nutrition and you find this post confusing, I suggest you simply find another source that is clearer to you.
…She literally directly stated that she was referring to TWO SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS who are THE FIRST PEOPLE TO HAVE PUBLISHED THE DIET. Not just random Paleo websites that exist, “and therefore do sometimes use many of our WAPF principles”.
I think whoever wrote this article is more than a bit biased against paleo. Maybe what those paleo recommendations say would have been true in it’s early conception, but most -if not all- paleo blogs and authors have adapted their views to suit what we now know about nutrition. Just from reading blogs such as MDA and Robb Wolf I know exactly what the WAPF teaches- Paleo now means sustainable real food, organ meats and bone broths are widely acclaimed as excellent for our heth. Also I don’t know many paleo blogs which wouldn’t recommend raw milk for those who can digest it- I started drinking it on the advice of paleo practitioners. Some more research done would have been nice rather than painting all those paleo with the same antiqutated brush.
“Paleo” has evolved and adapted DUE to the influence of WAPF. In most circles, “Paleo” now resembles the WAPF diet.
Hardly, the diet was misrepresented by Cordain and I’ll pass on soaking grains for the limited nutritional value they offer in the first place.
I eat grains and I don’t usually soak them. That’s how I feel about ‘paleo’. As if people in the ice age were eating coconut oil, fruits and lean meat… what a joke.
I agree, Renee Katz. I do try to soak most grains but I don’t always get that done and still use them. I make a “healthy” breakfast cookie that is wonderful and nutritious. AND, I do drink coffee, usually organic and always decaf because REAL coffee makes me jittery, and I love a good hunk of organic chocolate occasionally. Also, everyone loves and deserves a good stiff drink of almost anything now and then. I know I do! I love crafted beers from a couple of our local artisan breweries and there’s nothing like a dollop of kahlua, irish whisky or chocolate cherry cordial in a cup of hot coffee. So, yeah, I “break the rules” every now and then, but I’m no saint and I don’t think any of the rest of the world qualifies for that, either, not even those who are writing books and preaching about primal and paleo, or we wouldn’t be spending our valuable time in life on a computer. Doubt the saints would have approved of technology!
Look up the original research by Price; https://healthwyze.org/archive/nutrition_and_physical_degeneration_doctor_weston_a_price.pdf It’s very interesting. What struck me was the amount of saturated animal fats were eaten. Those that ate grains did soak them and prep them. (Mimicking the efficiency of grain eating animals- whose body heat and rumens, and extra organs process the grains, we can only try to mimic them). And everyone has to find their right balance. I’m afraid we are so messed up in our world now we can’t just dictate everyone’s needs. They have to find the right stuff. I love real food and thankfully I had a cooking and growing garden mother. And grew up in a time where they still left milk on the front doorstep. The real thing.
The frankenfoods and Round Up and yoga mat chemicals in your breads etc have changed all that. I love Food Babe because even though she’s semi vegetarian (I was at one time, and I was vegan at one time) , she does well on a more carbs, less meat diet, She just researches the toxic chemicals and avoids them, and her health cleared up. She’s beautiful and that means she must be doing the right thing for her. And she helps many other people, if they got the toxins out of their diets. I myself, love my breads but it will only work if I grow my own grain in clean compost , that’s the only way I can guarantee I won’t be poisoning myself. We just can’t trust our standard grains anymore. Too much glyphosate contamination. Even “organic” grains need to be tested. Stephanie Seneff says even all organic consumers are being found to have glyphosate in their tissues. That’s a bad sign. Really bad. Here comes the horseman of famine.
I CAN SEE THAT PALEO IS AN EVOLVING DIET THESE DAYS, IT SEEMS VERY SIMILAR TO WAPF… IN ESSENCE. COULD YOU CARE TO POST WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES YOU NOTICED BETWEEN THE CURRENT PALEO DIET DEFINITION AND THE ONE AS DESCRIBED IN THIS ARTICLE?
I AM NEW TO BOTH WAPF AND PALEO AND THESE KINDS OF DETAILS WOULD HELP ME EVAULATE AND MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT SOUNDS LIKE AN EFFECTIVE DIET FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH AN NUTRITION.
I AM CURIOUS, WHY DOES PALEO KEEP CHANGING ITS DEFINITION OF WHAT IS HEALTHY IF THE ORIGINAL CONCEPT WAS BASED ON SOUND SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATION AND RESEARCH? WHY CHANGE THE DIET NOW? WHY IS IT EVOLVING AS A DIET? I THOUGHT THE PALEO DIET WAS NOT ABOUT EVOLVING THE DIET BUT RATHER GOING BACK TO A TRADITIONAL DIET THAT WE AS HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED TOWARDS???
ONE THING I DON’T SEE BEING MENTIONED BY ANYONE IS WHAT ABOUT A PERSONS HERITAGE AND GENETICS? WOULD THAT ALSO INFLUENCE WHAT IS OPTIMAL DIET FOR THEM?
THANKS!
DAVE
Read the original research, it’s fascinating; https://healthwyze.org/archive/nutrition_and_physical_degeneration_doctor_weston_a_price.pdf
As Rene mentions in the below comment, I believe “paleo” has evolved due to the influence and research of Dr. Weston A Price and the foundation founded in his name. And that’s a really good thing; “paleo” was on the right track, but stopped short of the mark. WAPF goes beyond this, and teaches truth about nutrition, including the inclusion of animal fats and raw dairy foods. Thank you, Weston A Price Foundation, Dr. Price, and Sally Fallo Morell!
To me it seems that this Paleo diet is a TREND.. Like many other diets today. However researching and trying some of these popular diets that actually make sense, I realized they were unhealthy. I tried Raw vegan diet, which was good for short term… The Paleo diet does not make any sense to me. As I understand even they are trying to figure out… in the meanwhile making some dollars 🙂
Most of these popular diets are just businesses.
Everyone should research for themselves and eat accordingly to their lifestyle, habits and geographical location. No diet should be telling you that people in Africa, Latin America, Europe etc should be eating the same food to be healthy.
Let’s just use our naturally given common sense, before buying into diets…
I agree with Natalie. These claims were not well researched by the author (or they were excerpts from books that were written years ago, and author’s viewpoints/recommendations have changed). WAPF and PD do have many overlapping recommendations (I have heard from the main Paleo sources on numerous occasions how sprouting grains/legumes and consuming raw dairy is of benefit to those who can tolerate it). Also, Paleo is not a “minimal fat” diet. Quite the contrary; they suggest that people consume ample fats for optimal health.
They actually were well researched using publications and information available on the Wolf and Cordain at that time. We hope that this information has changed and is now more in line with Dr. Price’s research, as validated by other, more modern research today.
I am somewhat surprised by this article. I have been following a paleo-ish diet for sometime, and everything I have come across seems to promote much of what weston price promotes. Going through the list, it all seems so wrong, not paleo at all. At least not the paleo diet that I have come to know through tons of food blogs and friends. I definitely think this needs more research, especially branching out from those two people, who btw, I have never heard of.
I totally agree with you and posts above- this article slams paleo and makes WAPF look like “sour grapes” for sure. Everything I have read and followed with paleo people like Mark Sisson and the Paleohacks guy includes organ meats, bone broth, good fats, etc. Grains and legumes is where they differ. WAPF writer- you are just plain wrong!!
You are missing the point. This article is spot on, and as many posters here have noted, most Paleo practitioners are actually closer to being WAPD practitioners, which is great. But this article is pointing out the dangers of literal and popular Paleo practices – representing the implied definition of ‘Paleo’ as well as the leading practitioners it references. This is a real danger that this article is addressing.
Paleo, by definition, excludes not only grains, but all healthy ancient food preparations. Bone broths, kefir, natto, and other fermented foods, were not consumed by paleolithic man. Nor was any dairy. WAPF focuses on incorporating all beneficial ancient wisdom and practices, while Paleo (again by literal definition) excludes all that wisdom.
Sticking with the word ‘Paleo’ dogmatically is a danger, as it will always have an inadvertently negative impact on some people. If you are thinking ‘Paleo’ your diet will be severely flawed. This article is a great education piece that can prompt people to search for Paleo guidance.
Nomadic herdspeople ate a huge amount of dairy and fermented dairy ie the Mongolians. They lived as a cross species community with the herd, (horses and oxen) and tended to only eat animals that were old and wouldn’t make it through winter etc, rather than our habit of eating the babies. They were also very healthy until they took up western diets and moved to cities.
https://healthwyze.org/archive/nutrition_and_physical_degeneration_doctor_weston_a_price.pdf This is the original 9 year study done by Price, his herdsmen were African cattle keepers, also a confusing term since they drank sheep and goat milk also. The Massai were the best known but there are also the Dinka and Mundari, the Nuer Also I think. They drank a gallon or more per person a day, funny, considering how we are told that Blacks are intolerant to dairy.
Others were the high mountain Swedes that made huge slabs of cheese.
Whispering Sage: African cows and cross-breeds produce milk with differently spiraled proteins. When I lived in Kenya, I tolerated dairy products such as milk just fine. I believe it is the caseins in the milk which are different from that of European cow’s milk. In the U.S. I can eat butter but no other dairy. The problem with me is not the lactose, a sugar.
Catherine, from an outsider looking in, it looked to me the author was simply distinguishing the differences between the two, esp. because it seemed some of the paleo authors were using the WAPF tag with their paleo diets. This author even stated that this article was to make clear where the two are different, and not once did she demonize the paleo diet. So, I’m not sure where the slamming is. I actually found it quite insightful as a practitioner of neither. Although, I eat closer to the WAPF because that’s how my family have eaten for generations and we don’t suffer from any of the chronic health problems that plague this nation.
Perhaps the differences you see with the Paleo diet you hear from blogs and freinds is not necessarilly good sources either? perhaps you are just hearing from an individuals particular diet and perhaps they were confusing paleo with wapf suggestions and just calling it Paleo because it has a nice hip trendy sound to it? At least that is my impression about Paleo… it is definitely more trendy and hip sounding and identifiable than WAPF or Weston A Price Diet!
AS A PERSON WHO IS NOT PRACTICING WAPF OR PALEO AS OF YET, I FOUND THIS ARTICLE VERY EFFECTIVE IN RAISING IMPORTANT POINTS AND POTENTIAL DIFFERENCES OF OPINION ABOUT WHAT IS OPTIMAL NUTRITION. SO IT MAY APPEAR BIASED OR ANTIQUATED INFO ABOUT PALEO DIET BUT STILL, IT RAISES KEY IDEAS THAT ARE WORTH CONSIDERING FOR ANYONE THAT IS RESEARCHING AND LOOKING FOR GOOD DIETARY CHANGE RECOMMENDATIONS AND IDEAS. THE VERY IDEAS PRESENTED HERE VERY MUCH CHALLENGE ALOT OF RECENT NOTIONS AND POSSIBlY MYTHS ABOUT FOOD AND HEALTH. For example saturated fats and consuming lots of animal fats and cholesterol! That to me goes against everything I was raised to believe from the 1970’s to present day.
So Paleo is not sounding like it has 1 specific dietary guideline but rather a broad variety of opinions and diets within the Paleo movement/community.
SO AM I CORRECT TO ASSUME BASED ON ALL THESE PRO-PALEO DEFENSE COMMENTS,
PALEO DIET RECOMMENDS THE FOLLOWING FOODS:
*lots of animal fats and organs,
*Lots of Salt, and Fermented foods
*lots of Dairy and Raw milk
IS THIS WRONG? BASED ON ALL THESE COMMENTS BASHING THE ARTICLE, NOBODY IS POSTING SPECIFICS, JUST COMMENTS STATING THAT THE ARTICLE IS POORLY RESEARCHED, ANTIQUATED OR DOES NOT PROPERLY DESCRIBE PALEO DIET. HOWEVER NOBODY CARES TO POST EXACTLY WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE THEY SEE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE DETAILS IN THIS ARTICLE???
Hi Dave. I understand your frustration. I think that a good book that would answer your questions that I am currently reading is by Liz Wolfe called “Eat the Yolks.” She gives a really good expertise on food in general and the myths of fats and nutrients versus carbs and grains and the overindustrialization of the food market. Bottom line is we need fats. Real food and no processed junk and pesticide free non gmo. We also need healthy fruit and veggies. We can learn from how our ancestors prepared food and compare how different cultures are better thriving than others and why. I do feel like this article on Paleo is really different from the understanding I am building of how food works and what sources to get it from. Liz Wolfe, NTP does an excellent job of explaining the whole picture and in her view the traditional approach goes hand and hand with Paleo based on our ancestors were foragers and they adapted to their climates and what was available. They also knew about toxicity of things and how to help it be less. If they could eat something from now a days would they? Some things if prepared rightly. Others not on your life. I also felt this article was a little narrow on available options for Paleo as well. She does a better job explaining then I could in this brief reply. Blessings!
The comparison table in this article is poorly formatted thus difficult to read and neither of the links provided above are valid as they both get page not found. This alone is enough to cast doubt on the rest of the information contained within because it obviously was not reviewed by anyone with a lick of sense prior to publishing.
As a supporter of the Price foundation whose dear wife is exploring paleo, I look forward to a continued conversation about these two, true allies in the support of our health.
Well, everybody who posted here, including Frank, supports Paleo, apparently. I wish more WAPF folks would post.
As far as the allegedly poor formatting on the table: – I think there may be some tech-phobic folks at WAPF, which doesn’t really have anything to do with the contents of the table. Formatting in HTML is a horse of a different color from formatting for a hard copy.
WAPF is based on decades of research and travel, as well as dedication.
One of the above paleo fans claims that there is no minimal fat requirement for paleo. Yet, the front page of the “paleoleap” website specifies that you should keep healthy butterfat in dairy to a minimum.
Another (or maybe the same?) post claims that the only difference is that paleo does not include grains, but the more important main difference I can see is that paleo does not advocate the consumption of cholesterol.
Further, isn’t it obvious that paleoleap has some big corporate backers? I can tell that as soon as I see the website.
Paleo is for weight loss. Nobody at WAPF ever talks about losing weight.
Paleo is a theory of two contemporary guys. WAPF is based on the true lives of real traditional people, many of whom HAD BEEN (at the time Dr. Price visited them) maintaining their tradition since the paleolithic age. There’s a little bit about that in a book called, The City in History, by Lewis Mumford, who was the art and architecture critic for the New Yorker in the ’30’s.
“WAPF is based on decades of research and travel, as well as dedication.”
As is the paleo lifestyle
“One of the above paleo fans claims that there is no minimal fat requirement for paleo. Yet, the front page of the “paleoleap” website specifies that you should keep healthy butterfat in dairy to a minimum.”
Ok, I’m sorry this statement does not even make sense…Those are two different things – no minimal fat requirement and keeping butterfat in dairy to a minimum(you’re singling out one specific form of fat here not all fats). Some people who do not tolerate dairy well and still have an issue with consuming butterfat (some do not) and may need to keep consumption to a minimum. You are also basing your judgement on one bloggers site – not paleo as a whole. The wonderful thing about the paleo lifestyle is that the goal is finding what works best for YOU, its not just about following a set of rules. We work from a template to find what works best for us – some people tolerate dairy and feel fine consuming it some do not. Some can eat nightshades while in others that can cause some pretty uncomfortable issues. Its really about finding what works best for each individual.
“Another (or maybe the same?) post claims that the only difference is that paleo does not include grains, but the more important main difference I can see is that paleo does not advocate the consumption of cholesterol.”
What??? The may be some paleo bents that do not consume a ton of fat but most paleo people I know consume plenty of healthy saturated fats. You seem to have chosen one site as being representative of paleo as a whole.
“Further, isn’t it obvious that paleoleap has some big corporate backers? I can tell that as soon as I see the website.”
Really?? I don’t get that feeling at all from visiting the site – but many bloggers do have sponsors/affiliates – most often carefully choses to fit with the message they are trying to get across or for products that they have found helpful/useful.
“Paleo is for weight loss. Nobody at WAPF ever talks about losing weight.”
Paleo is not for weight loss – its is a welcome side effect for many but that is not the ultimate goal – optimum health is…which is why the paleo lifestyle puts strong emphasis on sleep, stress management and exercise as well
“Paleo is a theory of two contemporary guys. WAPF is based on the true lives of real traditional people, many of whom HAD BEEN (at the time Dr. Price visited them) maintaining their tradition since the paleolithic age.”
I don’t know where you get your information but Paleo is not a theory of 2 contemporary guys – where did you even get that?? I’m sorry I really don’t mean to be argumentative but your response to the article seems to be just as uninformed/poorly researched as the article itself. There really isn’t a whole lot of differences between WAPF and paleo and I just don’t get the us vs. them mentality that seems to be happening at WAPF. We really should be working together to get the message out there rather than playing this ‘we’re better than them’ game.
The Paleo website is not a blog.
It’s a sophisticated, high-end corporate advertisement. WAPF is a non-profit 501(c)(3) educational organization.
Why should anyone “work together”? That doesn’t apply here.
“Working together” totally applies if your goal is to created a more healthy, happy human race. That is your goal, right?
My goal here is to expose fraud that is “paleo.” Even the name is a hoax. They have nothing to do with the paleolithic age.
Really disappointing to see this kind of disparity of WAPF & Paleo Nutrition when it is very clear and has been made clear to Sally that both Loren & Robb have changed their POVs since their books were written YEARS AGO! Disappointing and definitively not in the best interest of anyone to put this type of comparison in writing on the internet, least of all WAPF. The Paleo Lifestyle, it is NOT a diet, it is a long term sustainable lifestyle that reaps long term health benefits and it’s very disappointing that such lack of care, disregard of research and responsibility for facts was taken in posting this comparison. For real facts about the paleo lifestyle, my suggestion is to attend many of the Paleo experts workshops, read their books or come to one of the Paleo f(x) events to see many of them in person. http://www.paleofx.com This comparison is NOT remotely accurate by any stretch of the imagination. My comment is in response to someone who saw this and was very confused and questioned me about it. All this article has done is lead to much confusion with NO ANSWERS, whatsoever.
I wish very much that I had time right now to do enough reading to show how incorrect Michell Norris’ statements are. I did click the link she includes in her comment.
What I read at that website only confirmed everything I’ve already said. I feel more confident than ever before now that I have checked out her link. It’s a slickly produced corporate marketing website.
I see no mention of soaked, sprouted or fermented foods.
Yes, Paleo IS a diet. They mention weight loss frequently — not just once or twice, in passing. They call people “obese.” They also recommend supplements — something that WAPF NEVER does, except for supplements that are made of actual food. They also have muscle-building products.
They say nothing at all about cholesterol. I don’t see any way in which they directly support small farms —- which WAPF does do, directly and legally, with the — is it the “Family Farm Defense.” (That’s not the proper name, I don’t think, but can’t think of it right now.) The only mention of family farms I can see on this Paleo website is “Get more veggies at the farmers’ market.”
They have a book that they sell, which is supposed to show you what your individual physiology “needs.” (For what? — Weight loss, apparently, although it’s a little unclear.)
I’d like to go into all these issues a little more, but I have study and work to do right now.
Paleo is a fad and a cult. They’re not a non-profit organization, like WAPF is. They are trying to present themselves as a mini – WAPF, but if they were really as SIMILAR to WAPF as they keep claiming here, then why not just join WAPF? Nobody at WAPF is going to force you to eat grain, if you don’t want to.
Paleo is not similar to WAPF at all. They are trying to profit from Dr. Price’s hard work. I don’t think Dr. Price made any profit from anything, but I’ll have to look that up to be sure. I know WAPF does not make a profit.
I intend to write a longer article about this. It makes me really nervous the way these Paleo fanatics are logging in here to criticize Sally’s article. They have nothing specific to say, really. (Except the table is not formatted correctly. What about the contents of the table, though?)
They seem to be on some sort of rampage. Maybe they’re not getting enough cholesterol? Or Vitamin K? Or fat?
Someone is apparently raging…
The problem is trying to compare Cordain and Wolf’s originating ideas with the current state of Paleo because Wolf and others have progressed it beyond Cordain and Wolf’s original ideas. Right now the primary differences with the WAPF diet seem to be the exclusion of grains, legumes, and possibly dairy, the specific goal to target a 1:1 O6:O3 fat ratio with no more than a 4:1 ratio, and (according to this chart) the lack of restriction against tea and chocolate. Otherwise they are pretty similar now.
Sally’s article is supposedly a comparison of the differences between the two diet recommendations. The recommendations she references are out dated even for the date her article was written. People who see that have the right to comment and point out that discrepancy.
WAPS is not a diet.
WAPF is not a diet, I meant to say.
But, you’re not just seeing that. Please don’t try to sound as if you just happened to be perusing the WAPF website, as if it were a normal habit for you. My guess is that this is the first time you’ve ever seen this website?
You’re coming here purposely to take up the entire thread with your corporate marketing.
Thank you Diana for your well reasoned comments. I too wish WAPF folks would comment but perhaps they actually have important things to do.
Victoria, yes, agreed. LOL
Thanks. I was getting kind of lonely here. Not sure what’s up with these folks?
OH, ladies. Throwing these insults isn’t helping you out. I did happen to come across your website randomly. I’ve been exploring new and sustainable eating habits for my family for about a year now – not wanting to just join in with some “fad cult,” and just now – this very minute, noticed “WAPF” on another website. I googled it, and clicked immediately into this article since I have been impressed by some of the Paleo principles and could use my knowledge of them (and the things I agree with and disagree with within their lifestyle) as a framework to evaluate the WAPF sustainable eating protocol.
Thing is, the research in this article IS sub-par — I have no motive to recognize that other than wanting a true comparison between WAPF and Paleo. And, because the research does draw some false conclusions, it is most certainly fair for a Paleo-eating-person to seek to correct the misinformation.
Nobody is out to get you here – in fact, if y’all were to recognize the errors that have been pointed out to you, to express gratitude for the enlightenment, and then to amend you article to reflect the actual facts of the paleo-diet-at-large, you’d appear to be one heckuvan awesome community to join! (One that contained empathy and human kindness to the same degree that it followed a kick-butt nutritional plan.)
In any case, you acrid responses and flaming defensiveness are doing much more to turn me away from a WAPF lifestyle than the simple error in reporting that the original article demonstrates. I don’t want to join a community who MUST BE RIGHT AT ALL COSTS. Ya know?
“I see no mention of soaked, sprouted or fermented foods.”
You may not find info on soaked or sprouted grains and legumes because for the most part paleo followers don’t eat much of those – we do however eat fermented foods – it may not be mentioned on the website Michelle linked because that is a website for a big paleo event not necessarily meant to be an information source for the paleo lifestyle.
“Yes, Paleo IS a diet. They mention weight loss frequently — not just once or twice, in passing. They call people “obese.” They also recommend supplements — something that WAPF NEVER does, except for supplements that are made of actual food. They also have muscle-building products.”
The word ‘diet’ does not necessarily mean weight loss – it just refers to a way of eating and is often used for lack of a better word (you could call it a way of eating). Weight loss may be mentioned but it is not a weight loss ‘diet’ many people do lose weight when they ditch the processed junk and remove gut irritating foods from their ‘diets’. Some people may use the paleo lifestyle as a way to lose weight but most of use eat this way because its healthy and makes us feel better. And weight lose is often a natural side effect of that. There may be some paleo advocates that recommend supplements (or supplement use in certain cases) but supplementation is not a large part of the paleo lifestyle – same goes for muscle building products.
“They say nothing at all about cholesterol. ”
I’d really like to know who this ‘they’ is that you keep referring to because your source particularly on this issue is incorrect.
“I don’t see any way in which they directly support small farms —- which WAPF does do, directly and legally, with the — is it the “Family Farm Defense.” (That’s not the proper name, I don’t think, but can’t think of it right now.) The only mention of family farms I can see on this Paleo website is “Get more veggies at the farmers’ market.””
Are you serious?!!? One of the main things that the paleo lifestyle promotes is buying humanely raised meats from local farms whenever possible.
“They have a book that they sell, which is supposed to show you what your individual physiology “needs.” (For what? — Weight loss, apparently, although it’s a little unclear.)”
Again you’re way off base here – and again with the ‘they’ who is the ‘they’ that has a book to sell? Paleo is not an organization or an entity or a business it is a bunch of individual people that are part of a movement to spread the word about eating real, well-raised, unprocessed food (very much like WAPF). Yes, there are paleo books as an information source on the whys and hows to the lifestyle (you might want to read one) and many many cookbooks out there – so what? Thats how people get this information and there are so many cookbooks because people buy them for the very same reason they buy any cookbook – for ideas on how to make yummy dishes. Didn’t Sally write a book? Nourishing Traditions? How is that any different?
“Paleo is a fad and a cult. They’re not a non-profit organization, like WAPF is. They are trying to present themselves as a mini – WAPF, but if they were really as SIMILAR to WAPF as they keep claiming here, then why not just join WAPF? Nobody at WAPF is going to force you to eat grain, if you don’t want to.”
I’m not even going to address the cult statement as that is just ridiculous coming from someone that makes WAPF sound like a cult (though I know its not!). Why all the animosity? Why do people that follow the paleo lifestyle bother you so much? I at one time did consider joining the foundation until I read Sally’s anti paleo rant and decided that wasn’t the type of organization I wanted to be a part of – I respect the work of Dr. Price very much but the ‘us(WAPF) vs. them(paleo)’ really turned me off. I always considered WAPF as a close cousin to paleo and there is a lot of good info to be found here I just don’t understand the animosity. And for your information there are many, many paleo advocates that are WAPF members and refer to Dr. Price’s work (leading more people to the foundation).
“Paleo is not similar to WAPF at all. They are trying to profit from Dr. Price’s hard work. I don’t think Dr. Price made any profit from anything, but I’ll have to look that up to be sure. I know WAPF does not make a profit.”
Nobody is trying to profit from Dr. Price’s work rather we are trying to spread the word so that more people can become informed about how what we eat can help or hurt us.
“I intend to write a longer article about this. It makes me really nervous the way these Paleo fanatics are logging in here to criticize Sally’s article. They have nothing specific to say, really. (Except the table is not formatted correctly. What about the contents of the table, though?)”
Really? Nobody that wrote here had anything specific to say?? Or you just don’t consider it relevant because they don’t happen to agree with you? People are being critical of the article because there is a lot of false or outdated info in the article. Why do you have a problem with people pointing that out? What’s wrong with correcting the false information?
“They seem to be on some sort of rampage. Maybe they’re not getting enough cholesterol? Or Vitamin K? Or fat?”
It seems like you are the one on a rampage – the paleo comments I have read here have been very civil and well thought out and informative…
These comments and debate are rather..exhausting. I will have to throw in though and say that there is more value to the WAPF eating style than the “Paleo diet.” There are countless articles and amounts of research that disprove the basic foundation of “paleo.” (I honestly don’t have time to go back and list links…but I have been researching various diets/eating lifestyles for over 4 years because I have an autoimmune disease.) I give credit to the founders of Paleo that they have built such a devout (and often malevolent) following. That said, the basic principals of eating healthy, whole, organic, REAL food is one that we should all follow and not argue about. For the Paleo evangelists on this thread- yes Paleo does get a bad rap. It is associated with cross-fit and getting SUPER lean (which is not healthy). It also advocates the elimination of entire food groups- which is foolish…and your dear founders have realized this and have relaxed their stance/boundaries on it….so yes, the Paleo followers out there who adhere to a more WAPF style..great…to the rest..it is only a matter of time before you relax your stringent beliefs. Also, for either camp WAPF or Paleo…people who have found healing through Ayurevedic diets or those who have found health through genetic based diets…or traditional Chinese medicine diets (or others) can put up a pretty good argument too.
Also if we could ONLY band together and fight against the people who REGULATE our food and food production in the US then we may have something here….instead of fighting amongst ourselves. I would really rather see all this fervor change the construct of what is deemed as ok to be sold and distributed as FOOD in this country (mass production, GMOs, pesticides, terrible farming practices (animal and produce), processed foods, lack of raw foods being sold and people getting arrested for trying to sell it..)….than us fight this losing battle and with each other.
as long as we continue to accept regulation and control over others as OK, then we will continue to be regulated and controlled by others. There is no compromise with liberty and freedom. We either have it all and accept the responsibilities and consequences of full liberty or we’ll eventually have none as those we hire to “regulate” us have no stopping point and are filled with self-righteous zeal. And then the pendulum will swing again towards liberty. You’d think by now the human race (with the advent of the internet) would learn that liberty is good, control bad, but we are a stubborn lot and usually require a few million to die in misery before we wake up and catch on again.
Been reading this thread for an hour, best response yet!
At best paleo is irrelevant after WAP, at worst it’s a very wrong-headed conception of what ‘paleo man’ was eating that’s completely out of touch with reality… the cave men were 100% carnivore, just like neanderthal. There was literally nothing growing in ice age, northern europe for them to eat. Go outside, look around you. Where are all these wonderful ‘paleo’ foods you think you’d be eating in the context of a primitive diet? Most of the green foods are poisonous, fruit is only available at certain times of the year in certain climates, pre-agrilculture, there were no grains… what were they eating? While expending thousands more calories than modern people do, because they were running around in sub-freezing temperatures, they needed tons more fuel to maintain their core temperatures.
And I’m supposed to believe these people were eating coconut oil, yams, potatoes, nuts and seeds, fruit and vegetables? How stupid can you be?! Plant foods were poisonous, not even worth the effort to gather them.
If we’re to be honest, the paleo diet was that of a carnivore, with absolutely NO carbohydrates. If they managed to dig up one potato, which they wouldn’t waste their time on, because the fat of large mammals would give them far more energy… it would not be enough carbohydrate to cause one person to go out of ketosis.
I’m not necessarily advocating this type of diet, though I believe it is healthy. And yes, they used the whole animal, a la WAP, not ‘lean meats.’ However, if you are going to obsess about what cave people eat, do not ruin history because you think you’re hard core eating yams with coconut oil on them.
Weston A Price is much more relevant to modern man. The traditional cultures he studied ate grains and dairy foods and were MUCH healthier than anyone doing ‘paleo’ today. They discovered how you could eat plant foods, even though human beings are essentially carnivorous, and still be perfectly healthy, maybe even healthier for it. This is all lost on ‘paleo’ and its idiotic practitioners eating rancid fish oil pills to ‘balance’ out their binges on macademia nuts and almonds and whatever else they think they’re eating to be like ‘Grok’… so that they turn to a puddle of PUFA as soon as the sun touches their skin greasy skin…
Paleo is not something you have to pay any attention to if you want health. Someone basically ripped off WAP’s ideas, and now all of their followers are going around saying ‘why can’t we just get along’, because plagiarism isn’t cool, and neither is some fantasy about cavemen eating walnuts and avocados. So that is what I think of ‘paleo’ and its originators and why I think they should be ignored, and Weston Price should be remembered in any and all future discussions of human nutrition.
I think it is important to be careful in making absolute claims in support of one’s ideas. Though plant foods would be very limited near the ice sheets, there would be some available for part of the year at least and all plants are not poisonous. It is a common fearful misconception that plants, in general, are poisonous. With research it becomes obvious that there are a great multitude of plants that provide food and medicine from around the world…including extreme climates like would be found near glacial and arctic regions (and not all paleolithic peoples were living near the ice sheets, an important point, since it seems everyone is stuck with the Hollywood stereotype). Knowledge of individual plants and plant families is important in order to make an educated evaluation of the suitability of a plant for food or medicine. We eat tomatoes, potatoes, elderberries, etc. but the foliage from these plants can make you sick or even kill you. Knowing what part(s) is/are edible AND the proper preparation techniques is vital to living off the land. Without question, primitive people, past and present, have/had vastly more knowledge about what they could eat to support their health than any of us do in our modern world.
Dr. Weston A. Price went looking for this missing information, the results of which were published in his 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration…an absolutely fabulous book, by the way. With the information gleaned from his research, he was able to determine the foundation of a good diet, irregardless of where one lives, the key to which is that all foods must come from nutrient-rich soils and water. Seafoods, dairy, organ meats, some meat, whole grains, and (depending on the availability in each region) nuts, seeds, beans, fruits, vegetables, and herbs. Predominately animal-based fats and, to a lesser degree, select plant-based fats are crucial to maintaining health. In regions where it is available, coconut oil bridges the gap between animal and plant-based fats quite nicely, making it a useful addition to the diet. When trying to translate the wide variety of native, health-sustaining diets to our modern world, we have to keep in mind that many of us have access to foods from around the world. Living in the Idaho desert as I do, good luck finding coconut trees or quinoa growing here, but I can get them at several grocery stores. With this knowledge that Dr. Price and his wife brought back with them, we can find a variety of foods to suit our nutritional needs. There is more than one path to good health, though there are universal principles that apply to nearly all of us (exceptions always exist, especially with extreme health conditions). Basically it is ensuring an adequate supply of all vitamins in a bio-available form from plant and animal foods derived from mineral-rich soils and waters (and preferably unpolluted). What that looks like for each individual will be different, but I think we can all agree that this basic principle is true for practically everyone.
One “diet” or another is often too extreme, and may provide some benefit for certain individuals for a time, but usually lacks the variety and balance needed for a life-long way of eating, yet they can be necessary for a period of time. People have a tendency to be extreme when adopting an idea, including diets. Even the originators often find something resembling a middle road after a while. The important thing that we all need to take away from this “fight”, is that eating a variety of whole foods (plant and animal) from mineral-rich sources, with special emphasis on vitamin-rich wholesome fats, vegetables, and fruits will provide us with the nutrition we need to live our lives.
Like religion and politics, people get very heated about “diets”, both as diets and as ways of eating, and a legitimate discussion quickly degenerates into a childish brawl. I agree that the original article was too limited in its scope and should have included more up-to-date information. And those of us presenting information for the education of others need to be open to constructive criticism…no one has all of the facts and someone always knows something we don’t. Being a teacher just means being a more devoted student, because the learning process doesn’t end when you start teaching, at least not if you are a good teacher. I have only read less than half of the comments posted about the article, and what I am mostly seeing is a lot of defensiveness from both sides (mostly WAPF) and sloppy, backhanded retorts (especially from WAPF) instead of carefully considered and researched responses. This is not the way to represent ideals and expect people to follow them. Instead this kind of childish and unprofessional behavior drives people away, which is a shame, since there is a wealth of valuable information to be had.
I am very much in support of Dr. Weston A. Price’s work and feel that it is extremely valuable for everyone, but I question any organization, idea, or diet, etc. that takes a rigid stance and defends it with weak arguments, particularly childish retorts.
In closing, I feel we must remember that good information is still good, no matter who is saying it. We must move beyond the petty arguments and find the real gems of information buried amongst the garbage of bickering. Truly understanding what wholesome nutrition is from healthy, vibrant people around the world who have lived with it from the beginning of time and into the present is the best example to follow, because they are proof that it works. Let’s stop this ridiculous fight and just start eating. Our bodies will let us know if we need to make changes.
I agree with you; you are spot on!
Have been reading and researching nutrition for several years now.
We humans are very adaptable. That explains why we have thrived on many types of traditional diets.
WAPF diet, Paleo and the various versions of it, vegetarian – we can thrive on all.
What’s clearly unhealthy and i think we can all agree is industrial processed foods, GMO foods, refined carbs, crops sprayed with pesticides, foods that have artificial additives, unnecessary added sugars, trans fats, crops harvested before proper ripening, animals raised in horrific conditions and fed unnatural diets to their species.
I agree the paleo diet began overly restrictive but they have now reversed many of their positions on fat, cholesterol, starch and dairy is considered grey area. This is directly off of Loren Cordains site.
“Despite its blood cholesterol raising effects, recent meta analyses (combined, large population studies) show that saturated fats have little adverse effect upon the risk for heart disease. We recommend that you should choose free-ranging or grass-produced meats over feedlot meats whenever possible. These meats are more healthful because they have nutritional characteristics similar to wild animals”.
I listen to Rob wolfs paleo solution podcast and he frequently recommends bone broths, sauerkraut. He frequently talks about eating bacon and coconut oil and recommends it to listeners as breakfast.
Chris Kresser is now one of the most influential people in the paleo diet and he has written many articles on the benefits of organ meats, starches, raw dairy, fermented foods and even did a piece on Dr Oz about how legumes are okay if well tolerated. I believe many of these ideas were pulled from WAPF that has help perpetuate the diet forward to a more sustainable long term diet such as WAPF diet.
You say, “paleo diet.”
You and these paleo shills keep saying “paleo diet”. You keep talking about “WAPF diet” —- as if there even WERE such a thing. (Thus revealing your own already obvious lack of knowledge or facts.)
There is no WAPF diet.
WAPF is not for weight loss or bodybuilding. It’s quite obvious that Paleo is marketed for bodybuilding and weight loss. Why else would they call people “obese”?
It’s fairly evident the term diet (noun) is being used to refer to “a : food and drink regularly provided or consumed; or b : habitual nourishment.” (Webster’s)
Keep up the name-calling. It really adds credibility.
Well said LBSAdams!
I found it for controlling autoimmune disorders. By the way society calls people obese.
I guess it is natural that ‘best selling’ popularisations be taken as defining a diet by the examples the give of what the author approves of. I had felt that Cordain’s fear of saturated fats came through in his book but thought it simply reflected an influence on his thinking because of current fashions of thought. I suspected that in fact presenting an assessment of traditional diet more in line with Dr Price’s observations might have been as difficult to get published as it was for awhile for modern dentists to not dismiss Dr Price’s warnings against root canals as based on shoddy work – the word ‘shoddy’ seems most bizarre to associate in any way with a careful scientist and observer like Dr. Price. Dr Timothy Noakes, a leading expert in exercise and sports science [in particular in connection with distance running, in his description during interviews of his positive experience with ‘Banting’ describes his regimen as consisting of very very low carbohydrates and healthful fats. I suspected this wording helped avoid the issue that saturated fats in fact could be part of his diet.
I am not sure if this is the case but assumed this was an attempt to avoid having one’s message lost in the fuss over offending another sacred bias (how many biases can one step on before one’s entire message is lost?). Given Cordain’s suggestion of what ‘Paleo’ meant it seemed to me it could not mean excluding organ meat or full fat foods. I cannot really picture my ancient forebears carefully skinning an animal before eating it or discarding any fat at all.
I remember when decades ago I was in the Far East and generally trying to follow a supposedly healthful diet as per Pritikin, a Chinese friend of traditional background expressing very strongly her astonished horror at the idea of wasting chicken fat and chicken skin and all sorts of other delicious affordable sources of beneficial nourishment. Given memories of what my grandparents apparently were accustomed to eat when they could get it in the villages they grew up in and remembering Chinese I knew who had grown up and lived most of their lives in very traditional settings I guess the thought of our Paleolithic forebears being so freaky about food as it comes to us naturally as to avoid organ meat or saturated fat never really occurred to me.
So for years now I have assumed ‘Paleo’ not to mean at all what perhaps most people think it.
means.
I find the proportion of meat suggested in some versions of the Paleo diet staggering. Is the assumption that our ancestors managed to kill a buffalo and eat one every week? I find it difficult to believe given the bodies we have evolved with that too high a proportion of protein and omega-6 fatty acids did not also make our Paleo forebears feel rather sick… especially in a low carbohydrate diet it seems to me our bodies can feel horribly ill without enough saturated fat whereas having the fat seems to me at least to make my body feel better in my 70’s than I did in my 20’s.
Clearly the two books cited for the authors research are INCREDIBLY outdated. I would say those books were a mere starting point for the paleo I know (I follow marks daily apple). The paleo I live by is pretty much W.A.P. minus the sprouted grains dairy as I am allergic to milk and celiac. I can understand wanting to distance WAP from the old and outdated “idea” of paleo…but why not research what is really, currently happening in all the blogs with their millions of followers? That would be a better comparison, and would provide unity among two groups who really are trying for the same thing…whole food diet, local sustainable farmers, high quality NONindustrialized meats. This article just makes the people who wrote it seem biased, uninformed, and frankly, a little small.
I couldn’t disagree more. I think the paleo writers are the ones who seem uninformed and ‘a little small.’ Bluntly, the ‘paleo diet’ is completely irrelevent after Weston Price’s writings. (paleo should be renamed ‘the whole foods diet). The entire premise of paleo was false to begin with. They didn’t know and never knew what ‘Grok’ ate. The ‘new’ paleo was rewritten to fit Weston Price’s observations of primitive cultures, and WAP was not concerned with what our paleolithic ancestors ate anyway. His whole point is we don’t have to know what Grok ate, cause he found out what healthy human beings were eating in his day, which often included grains and dairy foods!! Also paleo tends to promote protein powders and fish oil pills, they are way too obsessed with o6 and o3s – while they ignore the fat soluable vitamins. All in all, paleo is an unprincipled, haphazard approach to nutrition. WAPF has principled, rational guidelines on how to eat, and they give good explanations for what they believe. Weston Price was a scientist and a genius. Wolf and Cordain are neither. They are just popular writers trying to cash in on Weston Price’s work.
Cordain is actually a University academic…
Apparently you have never read anything by or about Dr. Price.
First, he was a DENTIST — AND, he did his OWN research, paid for by himself, personally. He wrote HIS OWN book, which will never be out of print because of a trust (I don’t understand all the details, really) that he created, to ensure it stayed in print forever, so that people could learn about what TRUE health is.
His last words were, “You teach. You teach. You teach.”
The traditional peoples that he traveled the world to interview (at a time when it was considered insane for a white man to learn from people with brown skin — although some of the traditional cultures did have lighter skin, as well) were following their own traditions FROM the Paleolithic period, but they had also learned other things from beyond the Paleolithic period, and they had incorporated that knowledge.
It’s ridiculous to claim that another person is somehow better than Dr. Price because the other person is a university academician. University academicians are a dime a dozen, if that much. More like one penny a dozen.
Sheesh!
I think the comment about Wolf being a Univerity Academian was in reference to to Renee’s comment:”Weston Price was a scientist and a genius. Wolf and Cordain are neither. They are just popular writers trying to cash in on Weston Price’s work.” She said they weren’t scientist but just rather 2 people out to make a buck – clearly that statement was incorrect.
Agreed – PHD = Piled Higher and Deeper. I don’t see what the problem is in comparing these versions of nutrition (Paleo “diet” and WAP Nutritional Info). If your version of “Paleo” is more like WAP, then great! If it isn’t, then maybe you should consider making some changes.
When my friends ask me what “diet” I’m on, I just tell them I’m not on a diet – I’m making healthy food choices for good nutrition and trying to eat very little processed foods. I tell them that everything Americans believe about nutrition (the Standard American Diet and Heart Association’s Low Fat Diet) is a lie. Then I educate them on the things I’ve learned.
I still eat chocolate. I don’t eat near enough organ meats (still can’t bring myself to do it). I can always use improvement… but …
I DON’T see Paleo as an enemy – rather a friend – because now days, it’s great to have Paleo and Gluten-Free choices popping up on menus all over the place. Even burger joints have “protien style” burgers wrapped in lettuce now. We are all working TOGETHER to eat better. Can we just get along and take what we learn with a grain of salt (preferably pink hemalayan)? 😉
I dare yourselves to call your “diet” a Weston A. Price Paleoish Non-Processed Health and Living Nutritional Lifestyle Choice. 😉 WAPPNPHLNLC Diet. hahaha
Thanks, Rene. Way to go! I completely agree.
These Paleo people are definitely trying to cash in on Dr. Price’s work.
Please note that none of the Paleo fanatics here have addressed the issue of why Paleo website is so corporate and slick, with “high-end” graphics.
Obviously NOT a non-profit corporation.
Again which paleo website are you referring to? Paleo is not an organization with just one website – you keep referencing the corporate aspect to ‘the’ website. I’m still trying to understand why you are so angry…
Diana – Your contributions to this thread are off-putting, to put it mildly. You might consider how you discuss your point of view with others, and you also might consider less divisive “us vs. them” rhetoric. And before you dismiss me as another paleo “fanatic”, I will say that I identify as neither paleo nor WAPF, but make choices more in line with WAPF list above.
Loren Cordain is an American scientist who specializes in fields of nutrition and exercise physiology. Robb Wolf is a former biochemist.
Suzanne ~~~ Ok, so riddle me this: Why are you out here shilling for Paleo?
Suzannee, thanks so much for making the WAPF case.
You admit the paleo books are incredibly outdated, even though they were published ca. — IDK? — about four years ago?
Yet, Dr. Price’s work, published in the ’20’s, is not outdated at all — except for the style of writing.
Glad you pointed that out.
I meant Suzanne, sorry.
I have this same Question: if paleo was not good at the beginning and then was revised by introducing Weston price ideas and research why just not stick with Weston Price? What is the difference? Can someone just give a simple answer?
I love this comparison, but I wonder why the WAPF says some carbohydrates are necessary? I thought one of the most interesting things about Weston Price’s research was that there were cultures who had almost 0 plant foods who were very healthy. I eat a WAPF version of the ketogenic diet, with cod liver oil, beef liver, bone broth, probiotic foods, all that good stuff (no dairy cause of leaky gut issues). I mainly started avoiding carbs cause of the GAPS diet, but it works for me so I have just been zero carb for almost a year now.
Yes, I’m not at all surprised. My son in-law had some rather disturbing and serious symptoms lately. Very scary! it seemed that his tummy was not working properly. He was anemic, and could not digest things well. He’s only in his 30’s, and they have two little boys and a teenager.
My daughter studied Nourishing Traditions and making bone broths and fermenting veggies.
One morning he woke up and said, “I feel human for the first time in five days!”
This article seems to have caused a lot of emotional responses. Not surprising since those who “follow” a lifestyle often imbue it with religious zeal. All told, those posting with support from the paleo camp are correct. Much of what falls under the paleo label has a close resemblance to the Weston Price material. This is especially true of the Auto Immune Protocol developed by Sarah Balantyne, PhD. Her work is well researched and backed by hundreds of studies. It is nearly identical to the WAPF. It varies in places due to the necessity of treating an autoimmune disease.
I’ve noticed a hostile attitude within the WAPF in the comments and book reviews. Rather than denigrate anyone who espouses a diet that varies from the WAPF I think it would be of greater value to celebrate and support those who make their contribution to nutrition science. Their work may not jibe 100% with WAPF but does support what Weston Price found so many years ago.
The “you don’t believe exactly what I do so you are wrong” camp is a childish religious notion. It doesn’t seem to be prevalent in WAPF but it does seem to exist.
Nice straw man, Brian.
Diana-
Please review your logical fallacies. Brian’s comment was not a straw man.
WAPF is not a diet.
Paleo is a diet. You keep chanting, “WAPF diet,” as if that would make it true. Then, you say it’s “like” the Paleo diet.
WAPF is not “like” anything, because it’s not a diet at all. It’s the NAME of a non-profit organization.
The non-profit organization does many things to promote health on the deepest levels — not only for people, but for the earth, the environment, and society in general.
Paleo is a hyper-simplistic, shallow, unscientific CORPORATE, MONEY-MAKING fad.
Wow. I have to agree with Brian Wilson, there seems to be a lot of emotion surrounding this Paleo vs WAPF issue. There’s no need to take any of this personally, and there’s no need to be condescending or ‘snarky’ either. People really do have the right to make their own choices!
I guess a lot of people missed this direct quote from the above article:
“We also realize that there are many versions of the paleo diet, some of which incorporate some of the WAPF dietary principles. Nevertheless, the principles proposed by the two main spokesmen for the paleo diet—Loren Cordain and Robb Wolf—have virtually NO points in common with the WAPF principles.”
It seems obvious to me that Sally Fallon (the president of WAPF for those of you who don’t know who she is) is acknowledging the ever-changing face of this modern diet, giving it credence, and is simply presenting the WAPF counter-principles to the ORIGINAL Paleo inventors’ principles. Nothing more. I found the chart easy to read and understand, and extremely helpful.
People, choose the lifestyle and dietary regimen that seems best to you after reading Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price. If Paleo works for you, fine. Everyone has some health issue that they need to address, don’t sweat it, just do what works for you.
The only caveat to “do what works for you” is to first read and research both sides of the issue before you decide, in order to be able to make a fully informed decision.
Good Health to all,
Molly
“People really do have the right to make their own choices!”
So true.
They can choose to tell the truth , or they can choose to lie, and scam the public for profit.
Isn’t THAT condescending, personal, and snarky?
I think it is.
I personally agree that it’s really silly that people are getting so mad about it (seriously WAPF people, we’re on the same lines as you! We aren’t the margarine-loving, sugar endorsing enemy.) I personally just think it might be a good idea to have the revised view of Paleo for people to look at? I don’t know any paleo fan that still believes in those antiquated ideas about sat fats and cholesterol and everything. But really, people who are calling out paleo bloggers for stealing W.A. Prices’ work… it’s not a competition. We’re all just trying to moving forward in our health and wellbeing, so why not do it together?
Paleo folks have made it a competition by using the WAPF name and reputation to make a profit.
BTW, so far I’ve seen no denial that Paleo is a corporate profit-making entity. I’ve mentioned it many times. If it were not true, surely someone would have mentioned that by now?
No matter. It can be readily verified.
Ok, so show me where the Paleo corporation is and how I can find it? Paleo is not an entity!
Of course I know who Sally is.
I first read her book, *Nourishing Traditions*, in 2008. I first joined my local WAPF chapter as soon as I read NT.
What’s your point?
This article is inaccurate in it’s claims about what the paleo diet represents. The most preposterous being no added fats, only lean meats. This is simply not true. Also, paleo writers talk immensely about pastured raised animals. I could provide many more inaccuracies, but they have already been mentioned and I think anybody who has been in this scene long enough knows the bias in this article.
What is the motivation? I suspect jealousy. The paleo diet has a much larger following than WAPF. I personally love both hand take ideas from both sides which suit my needs. Paleo writers give plenty of credit to WAPF, but it seems this writer is in competition and there is some hate involved. As said already, just looking at the chart shows the incredible bias and misinformation about what paleo represents.
This isn’t a competition for followers so more money can be made. This is a world wide change in our habits which affect health. There’s no need for this kind of misleading article.
This article seems to be written by a bitter person over all the attention paleo is getting. Paleo is not your enemy. Proctor & Gamble and Monsanto are. The WAPF and Paleo both want the same. Healthy people and both are very, very much in line with each other.
I support the WAPF. I donate to the WAPF, but if you insist on keeping this article up without revision then my support will stop.
I’m sorry I continued reading the comments as the bitterness that comes through them is a spiritual poison.
The new Prevention (September 2015) highlights a paleo diet, which looks very interesting but after working to heal my gut, I’m leery of the exclusion of legumes and fermented dairy as both kefir and yogurt, chickpeas and lentils are healing foods for me. However, i gained many good ideas that I will incorporate in my healthy lifestyle.
So rather than waste any more time in the acrid pool of bitterness, i’m off to make some pickled cabbage and carrots.
Here’s to forgiveness –it bring reconciliation and joy! Which i pray for you all!
I am not sure why high quality chocolate is banned, or why coffee and tea are categorically not recommended. Also, I don’t see the strong evidence behind the suggested level of salt consumption. Is there any firm report on how much healthy groups consumed like the Masaai or Kitavans?
Just to avoid confusion, I am more on the WAPF side in this case, except for above.
I agree. Natural chocolate contains cocoa butter, which is an excellent source of natural fat. And coffee and tea – am curious why those are considered “not recommended.”
I visit this site and some paleo sites from time to gather ideas to improve my health. I consult other sources as well. I’m not selling anything, don’t have a dog in this “fight”, and doubt paleo has a definable orthodoxy.
Dr Price was a genius, well ahead of his times. Nonetheless times move on, and if mankind is lucky, the truth is adopted in many forms. Nobody owns the truth.
IRDK about who has the purest motives, or about who’s on top in a petty turf war. Paleo “followers” and “testers” shouldn’t feel like they need body armour to read your commentariat. Sniping, for those who must, would be better directed at the poisoners. Perhaps this thread is an anomaly; I hope so.
“Sniping, for those who must, would be better directed at the poisoners.”
Here here!
Hey guys,
You do the argument, but I follow both.As far as I know, paleo diet recomend eating meat with the fat. I been on paleo diet for about 6 years and about one year following the WAPF nutrition requirement.I confess I crave sometimes.
I was very absorbed in some articles here and considering donating. Then I come across this inaccurate and biased list from a link off the home page no less. What a way to turn people off. Why not rewrite it with a truthful representation of general paleo viewpoints and point out the real differences you recommend and why. You’ll have many more supporters by embracing similarities and researching reasons for modifications, rather than viewing paleo communities as a threat to your organization.
I am saddened to see this article presented in such a manner. There is no reason to fight or point fingers between WAPF and Paleo/Primal. The books cited here are some of the first to appear on the Paleo market…in the meantime numerous books have been published which further align the Paleo recommendations with WAPF recommendations (loosening up on restrictions for legumes, gluten-free grains, carbohydrates and white potatoes, as well as adding essential components such as saturated fats, organ meats, bone broth, cholesterol, natural salts, etc).
The main thing is that both WAPF and Paleo/Primal have taught real people to eat real food – the whole animal, the natural fats, the yellow butter oil (found in clarified butter from grass fed animals), foods cooked at home, bone broth, fermented foods, the list goes on and on. Followers of either protocol truly understand how health and healing are directly connected to feeding the body the proper nutrients. Any bickering between these two groups will only discourage others to pursue either one of these valid, health-promoting lifestyles. In my opinion, this article is a disservice to those still caught in the Standard American Diet.
I agree, this is a VERY unfair comparison.
Loren Cordain basically appointed himself as THE Guru of the Paleo movement and foisted a LOT of incorrect “information” as to what Paleo Man supposedly ate and didn’t eat (yet had no background in anthropology or primitive peoples archeology).
And Robb Wolf was a student of Cordain’s so Harper the same message.
Since then, a number of much better Paleo writers have surfaced and painted a much stronger picture of true Paleo Diets.
That said, I don’t fully agree with the Paleo Diet or the “Weston Price” (i.e. Enig-Fallon) Diet.
To me, both are simply too high carb – unless worked very strictly. They at least have the potential to quickly slide away from Low Carb if followed within the open parameters.
I prefer the LCHF diet as espoused in Allan’s “Life Without Bread” (for something older and simple) or the “Low Carb High Fat Diet Revolution” (for something newer). Perfect? No. (Stay away from soy for example)…. but a cup of coffee with a big dollop of heavy cream isn’t Paleo or Weston-Enig-Fallon — but is actually GOOD for you!
As I’ve been reading through these comments, I have been thinking, “At least they are ‘for’ eating meat and hopefully real foods rather than processed rubbish or vegetarianism.” I appreciate the WAPF research, but I don’t think I’m going to die if I indulge in a cup of coffee. Anyone who blindly accepts any diet, no matter its name, without his/her own research is going to be disappointed.
Also, it does say in the title alone that these are just the differences not the similarities. Perhaps it would have helped to have a third column for such info.
And, Rachel, I so agree that either would be a vast improvement over the Standard American Diet.
Absolutely! Same as I replied to Rachel.
What’s funny about this article is that I actually heard about Sally Fallon through a friend first, then found Paleo/Primal (which I stick to to this day) because of this very controversy. I love Sally and I love Mary Enig and the WAPF, but obviously this issue was not handled well at first; I see that it has been updated appropriately and am glad that it goes after the very overly-restrictive versions of Paleo that don’t even include tubers, animal fats, or raw dairy as real food (which I eat almost at every meal), and that also overemphasize the idea that grains are so bad that no one should ever eat them despite the lack of real evidence for that, given how many cultures eat them that have been around for quite some time. It has more to do with the crumbling of food traditions being passed down and the relinquishment of proper agroecological farming practices, i.e. the cheapening of the food system, and also the lack of understanding of human digestion and physiology. Today Paleo/Primal is really just grain- and legume-free, with dairy as an option if it’s raw and grass-fed and well-tolerated, but other than that it’s very much centered around Weston A. Price principals.
Why nuts are allowed and grains and legumes are not if all have antinutrients? Please advise. Thx!
Interesting, I have been following the WAPF diet for almost five years battling chronic pain and inflammation due to psoriasis. I’ve had arthritis in my joins since the 3rd grade. Following the WAPF diet modified for sensitive eaters has taken away joint pain.(not due to climate change)
Now that I am not able to live on a farm I am not able to afford everything on the list, the paleo diet feels like a cheaper imitation- literally for people without the flow to feasibly follow a more realistic diet, I had no idea, the guys behind the book were recommending supplements. you know, paleolithic diners didnt have that. Maybe they liked to pretend they did…. we like to imagine a lot in our forward moving society of freedom of thoughts and ideas…
that being said, for myself I cannot recommend alcohol, or wine, but an Ayurveda doctor told me I should in fact eat chocolate… and part of me thinks its due to where I was born, genetics, and the fact that my parents gave me chocolate at a young age….. It makes me wonder even more about the details of evolution and adaptation.
we are not immune.
I can see that the paleo diet is extremely dangerous. I have a friend who was obviously on a paleo diet given to her by her doctor for weight loss. It was a low fat, high meat diet with Vitamin D supplements and a small amount of dairy. She told me that she was eating a pound of meat a day. I begged her to stop doing that. About three months ago she fell and broke her femur lengthwise. The bone just fell apart. She’s now in a nursing home rehab, unable to place any weight on this leg.
On the other hand, I’ve been following the WAPF diet very strictly for ten years, including a large amount of raw dairy and liver every day. I have poor balance, so I’ve slammed my body on hard surfaces several times. None of these falls has resulted in any injury. At age 73 I do many hours of part time teaching 7 days a week. I take care of my yard, including weeding, mulching and pruning of bushes and trees. I firmly believe the researched opinions of WAPF.
Sounds like she was doing it wrong. I’ve never read a paleo guidline saying to stray away from fat.
My biggest concern with the paleo diet is that it does not provide enough calories for weight gain. If you are trying to gain muscle through weight lifting you need a caloric surplus. Even if I eat 100g fat a day with meat and healthy veggies I can not eat enou calories to gain muscle. By adding in raw cheese and fruits and minimal phytate free carbs like quinoa and buckwheat as part of the WAP diet I can gt enough calories to gain weight. I find it odd that no where in my adding about the paleo diet does it mention gaining weight, just loosing it.
Why restrict yourself?
Eat 600 grams of fat and 400 grams of protein, or even 1000 grams of fat and 600 grams of protein or whatever… as long as it is some form of meat / poultry / fish / seafood / hard cheeses / etcetera! Besides CALORIES alone do not build muscle. Carbs nor even fat won’t build muscle – they are producers of energy. Only PROTEIN, completed active protein (as oh found in ANIMAL products) builds muscles – and everything else! Protein (nitrogen) builds EVERYTHING in the body. And protein NEEDS fat for proper and full absorption.
It sounds to me like maybe you are still afraid of saturated fat – and can’t take that Giant Leap forward!
I found WAPF a decade ago after trying vegetarianism and primal/paleo. I don’t keep up with paleo but it WAS strongly promoted as a high-protein/low-carb/low-fat diet before and lean red muscle meats were king. That never sat well with me. To think ancient peoples would waste the fat and organs? In fact we know that fats and organs were the most highly prized and are the most nutrient-dense. We know animals were hunted when they were the fattest. Primitive peoples are all familiar with “rabbit-starvation”.
From a quick search on Amazon, both popular paleo books referenced in this article were published in 2010. That was 4 years ago. The summary of both books mention weight-loss. If their messages have changed considerably since then that is the sign of a fad. The message of Dr. Price hasn’t changed in 80 years and is based on the traditional foodways of people all over the world. Though the diets varied, the principles were the same. I can only speak for myself, but I feel tremendously better on a high-fat (pastured animal fat, coconut oil, raw EVOO), moderate protein, moderate carb diet with ample bone broth, liver, raw dairy and fermented foods (veges, sourdough, FCLO) than I ever did with a lean-meat and vegetable diet of paleo. That being said, I would still consider paleo people my brethen as we all eschew processed foods and seek to know the source of our food. I would eat paleo over SAD anyday.
I do think paleo folks with problems digesting properly prepared grains and raw/fermented dairy should try the GAPS diet to heal their gut issues caused by their formerly “modern” diet.
Great post Kurt. I think sally was being very kind in her post, as in fact, the idea of a paleo ‘way of life’ is ridiculous. It sounds great for about a minute, but the logic quickly falls apart, and it was not built on nutritional science. Anyway, you make many excellent points in your post, so I wanted to comment simply to bring it to attention.
Indeed, Dr. Price’s work has not only stood the test of time, but has continued to gain significance and validation.
The Paleo Approach: Reverse Autoimmune Disease and Heal Your Body Paperback – by Sarah Ballantyne is absolutely brilliant – maybe the most important diet and health book since 1939!
http://www.amazon.com/Paleo-Approach-Reverse-Autoimmune-Disease/dp/1936608391/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416456538&sr=8-1&keywords=paleo+approach
As a scientist all I have to say is that paleo-man lived to be about 20 so why do we want to emulate him or her. Of course he had no health problems. He also did not live in a world of chemicals.
I am really disappointed. I came to this website looking for some good information based on what I had recently read about the Foundation. I am not Paleo or anything else so have no vested interest in the Paleo perspective. I was totally dismayed to see how poorly the research had been done into the Paleo diet and anyone who just keeps abreast of what is happening in the news re paleo would know that the article had many points that were simply wrong- tequila on an empty stomach – come on.
Needless to say, I won’t come back to this site as the reliability of the information is suspect at best.
I am very disappointed in this chart. Paleo includes many items as WAP. This needs to be updated.
Could not have said it better. It is very disappointing.
This is a funny line of comments, I love all of the passion and religious zeal! YOu are all amazing! Such vibrancy, if not lacking for any humor or apparent ability to enjoy life, a very energetic bunch!
I am part of a large community of people who live by Nourishing Traditions. A huge community of mothers and father and children and farmers and educators. It’s wonderful stuff! It was very hard for me to stomach after having been raised vegetarian my whole life and eventually developing metabolic syndrome as a result. A diet of brown rice and miso soup did do me very well after 40 years.
So my family began adopting (or rather attempting to adopt) the ideas in Nourishing Traditions. Talk about mission impossible! As if finding raw dairy weren’t difficult enough, I’m supposed to find all types of exotic animal products in my modern society and modern life?!?! Thsi cookbook is enough to drive anyone to the point of madness such that they might be inclined to find themselves infuriated by otehr people who have their own passions and anonymously voice them on an internet web page! What a shinng example of rounded blanaced living!
So, my children still eat in a very similar manner to what Ms. Fallon receommends, albeit not quite as fanatical as to follow of the absurd recipes (I highl;y doubt anyone here regularly makes many of the bizarre recipes in that book).
Me, on the other hand, was directed by my Dr. to look into a carb restricted diet. She mentioned the work “paleo” in passing but gave me specific instruction, the top one being “EAT MORE FAT!!!”.
So I do not identify as Paleo, I identify as Primal, because Mark Sisson outlines a diet that is ACHIEVABLE and doesn’t restrict those things that are important and good! Like full fat dairy! In fact I eat over 500 calories of full fat dairy every day in my coffee! And I have never felt better! I maker bone broth, I eat coconut oil by the spoonful and I can not describe the joy of eating all of the skin off of a roast chicken before anything else, this coming from a lifelong vegetarian.
I will recommend to my children that they reduce carb intake once their brains have fully formed and they are no longer growing, until then I believe they need some carbs. As a grown adult, there is no reason for any non-fiber carbs in my mind, they create cravings for more. My rule is simple, no root, fruit, grain or sugar. ESPECIALLY LACTOSE AND FRUCTOSE.
So you see the biggest difference between Fallon and Paleo is the use of carbohydrates. In raising a family I agree with her, as a middle aged man, I agree with Mark Sisson.
I have done both diets, and the menu Sally presents is simply impossible for me to achieve so it isn’t really a matter of which is best, more of which is possible.
Sheesh you folks on here with all of your dogmatic hatred sound almost as bad as a vegetarian! Or (gasp) a vegan!
Now, I’m off to make some sauerkraut, eat some full fat meat, and really enjoy this life and appreciate others for whtat they have to offer, even if only a lesson in how NOT to act or what NOT to do.
Your diet sounds great Adam. And I would definitely look at you as a person that is following WAPF guidance. Sally’s book, while excellent, does not represent ‘the’ Weston Price diet. There is no such thing. There is only guidance. One of the great achievements of Weston Price’s work was to show that optimum nutrition can be achieved by a great many diets. There is no single, strict Weston Price diet. Just the guidance, which each person should adjust to suit their own situation. We use WAPD (Weston A. Price Diet) for convenience, but again, but definition, it has tremendous flexibility and variety, as demonstrated by the diverse cultures that Price studied.
It is good that you are aware enough not to identify with Paleo. You don’t have to identify with any label. I think the WAPF guidance is the holy grail of dietary guidance, but we don’t have to label ourselves.
What you are seeing here in the comments is akin to vegans insisting that they can eat meat and still be vegan. That obviously contradicts the definition. Yet the paleo people are doing exactly the same thing. Sally’s outline of Paleo in this post is spot on – as implied by the definition of the word, the concept of the caveman, and the guidance espoused by mainstream practitioners. There is simply no logic in disagreeing with this article, or even being offended by it.
One more comment. On the supplement thing. I have always believed in “food as medicine”. My Dr. had to twist my arm very hard to get me to take supplements. And you know what? After having actually read “Nutrition and Physical Degeneration” I see that she was espousing the same thing as Dr. Price. You Dr. Price was very concerned with the degradation of soil on the planet. My Dr. says that no longer are we able to extract the nutrition from plant foods that we need because it no longer exists in the soil. So the plants that our food stock eats, as well as the plants that we eat, simply do not have the nutritive value that they once did and so in order for us to achieve the optimal health levels of our forebears we must supplement.
Makes sense to me, and in fact this thinking is EXACTLY in line with Dr. Price in my mind.
I think your idea is correct about supplementing. One other great thing about the WAPD, is that it puts a lot of emphasis on checking your food sources. In fact, I am actually not a fan of supplements – I mean the heavily processed, artificial nutrition (i.e. synthetic vitamins), that is often loaded with fillers and chemicals and sold as pills and powders. It is always better to get nutrition from natural food sources – or natural supplements. And there are many great food items that look like supplements – meaning they are packaged in pills, powders, liquids, oils, etc. Pines Wheat Grass is one good example, and the Fermented Cod Liver Oil and Butter Oil at Green Pasture are others. I recommend looking to those types of products for your supplements.
Can you please just have a look at Pete Evans ‘The Paleo Way’. Many similarities to WAPF but differ on grains and dairy. Pretty much everything else is the same. Just choose which lifestyle you want to follow and do it peacefully without complaining about other lifestyle choices. Eat healthy live healthy and be happy
If a vegan eats meat, and insists that we still call him vegan, that is a problem. We cannot let people corrupt basic definitions and create confusion. If it looks like WAPF, then it is WAPF. Using the word ‘Paleo’ is keeping people from finding the great wealth of information that is at WAPF, and that is a shame. Seeing the disgruntled comments on this article shows you the problem that these ‘Paleo’ practitioners has created – tons of people that do not understand the basic definition of paleolithic. Sally’s article does a great job of educating, and has more than enough disclaimers.
Paleo people, please understand that this post by Sally is a fantastic service to Paleo practitioners. Paleo, by definition, and as championed by many, is severely flawed, as Sally clearly points out. Do not confuse this with the many Paleo people who are in reality WAPD people that are using the term Paleo by preference.
I love Paleo because many of the Paleo people are actually promoting WAPD. But I also loath Paleo because it is a dangerous word. The word ‘Paleo’ excludes all the wise traditions and great foods of our ancient cultures. Paleolithic, by definition, predates those traditions. No dairy, no fermented foods, no broths, etc.
For a solid year I ate a Weston A. Price diet by recommendation of a certified master herbalist. At the end of the year, these were my results: A solid 10 pound gain, fatigue, depression, stiff achy joints, horrible periods, and a diagnosis of uterine fibroids. I have gone back to my plant-based diet and exercise. The weight is coming off and my mood and energy are much better. Hoping to get the fibroids under control. I wouldn’t recommend this diet to anyone. These people are radical. You cannot attain perfect health through food. We were not created to fulfill some physical goal. We were created for much more than that. If you seek God’s kingdom first, He will give you the fullness of your days. We were never meant to obsess about food and health. That is His concern, not ours. Be reasonable. Make wise choices. But stay away from the radical health maniacs. The are going to die too…when God has already previously determibed.
Wow. Just wanted to say (like many others have) that the mean-spirited, small tone of this article and some commenters above (mostly Diana) do a huge disservice to promoting WAPF. So sad. I agree with much of the content of this site and its foundation, but talk about a huge turn-off. I wouldn’t consider donating or joining with such low attacks and slanted presentation. Major credibility problem–surely, you can do better WAPF.
This is a VERY unfair comparison.
Loren Cordain basically appointed himself as THE Guru of the Paleo movement and foisted a LOT of incorrect “information” as to what Paleo Man supposedly ate and didn’t eat (yet had no background in anthropology or primitive peoples archeology).
And Robb Wolf was a student of Cordain’s so Harper the same message.
Since then, a number of much better Paleo writers have surfaced and painted a much stronger picture of true Paleo Diets.
That said, I don’t fully agree with the Paleo Diet or the “Weston Price” (i.e. Enig-Fallon) Diet.
To me, both are simply too high carb – unless worked very strictly. They at least have the potential to quickly slide away from Low Carb if followed within the open parameters.
I prefer the LCHF diet as espoused in Allan’s “Life Without Bread” (for something older and simple) or the “Low Carb High Fat Diet Revolution” (for something newer). Perfect? No. (Stay away from soy for example)…. but a cup of coffee with a big dollop of heavy cream isn’t Paleo or Weston-Enig-Fallon — but is actually GOOD for you!
The so-called paleothic or “hunter-gatherer” diet is at best a guess at what ancient man ate. No documentation. No historical records. Only romantic ideas about an ideal human diet. Everyone is free to make up their own version of it because it is not based on historical records. No one can even prove that “cave men” were healthy and long lived.
On the contrary Dr. Price spent many years “in the field” studying and documenting the diets and lifestyles of indigenous peoples. He discovered what constituted healthy living.
I understand completely why WAPF wants to distance themselves from the “Paleo” gurus. Their dietary principles are different. We don’t have to obsess about our diet but the principles of the WAPF diet are based on cultural realities and not on modern author’s dietary presumptions and theories.
There seems to be a tremendous amount of obsession about this diet. I like the knowledge offered here, but I think people need to remember that good health in addition to good nutrition also involves genetics, geographical location, lifestyle, stress management, etc. I think the most detrimental diet is the standard American diet of processed foods, fast foods, etc. Imo, each person needs to find the kind of healthy nutritional approach that works for them. Any diet taken to an extreme will eventually swing the other direction or lead to illness….balance is the key. I personally would limit the amount of saturated fats eaten and try to follow a balanced whole foods diet using some of the guiding principles here, in other words within reason try to make most of my own foods, but it can be challenging given that we have so many other obligations in our lives.
I just think people should do what works for their bodies. I have done gluten free, AIP which allowed me to get off all my prescriptions and allowed my gut to heal and I have been reintroducing foods back into my diet. When I reintroduced raw grass fed cheese I became Primal which is the Mark Sisson way. Now I am reintroducing soaked,sprouted, fermented and cooked chickpeas and I was told that was WAPF diet. I really don’t care to classify myself I just want to balance my nutrition without getting sick again. So I do and support what works for my body. I think the comparison is interesting because a lot of what it said the paleolithic diet doesn’t encourage is what Paleo people are doing especially the bone broth, organ meat and lactose-fermented veggies. Most Paleolithic followers I know make their own births and Kraus etc. And they drink and eat daily and concentrate on nutrient density everyday. So I believe it is evolving in a good way but not enough for me.
I may have been reading wrong but I didn’t get a lot of this from the Paleo information I read. Much of what Robb Wolf says is very similar to WAPF. I think a lot of these “no mentions” are untrue.
It is just one of those topics we can not divide people. Each person is different it is up to us to find what works. There is no one guru or magic bullet that can help people or this planet.
We are all trying to accomplish better health. I appreciate the hard work and wisdom presented by Dr. Price and hats off to Sally for casting a bright light on his research. I truly appreciate the recipes that I find in some — not all — Paleo cookbooks as they are gluten, grain and dairy free as I have never felt better in my life since I have dramatically reduced grains, eliminated gluten and drastically cut dairy and sugar — except raw honey. Recommend Grain Brain by Perlmutter btw. Goodbye foggy brain, stomach aches, arthritis, and skin rashes. Leaky or impaired gut — thanks to generations of my ancestors serving canned milk to babies — seems to me to be the culprit. Yes, we inherit our leaky guts! Suspect most of our problems, including psychological, begin right in the gut. Indeed bone broth, fermented foods and drinks, and pro-biotics are vital for restoring the gut and Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride (gaps.me) preaches this at the WAPF meetings. Just a few changes can make all the difference. — NOTE: I am a proud member of WAPF and receive their periodicals. I understand their concern about Paleo as there are many vitamins and nutrients that come from grains. But if you cannot break it down, or if you have a leaky gut, you are harming yourself by consuming them — doesn’t matter if they are soaked, Diane. Ask Dr. Campbell McBride as she speaks at your conferences. Her healing diet EXCLUDES all grains, legumes, dairy (allowed eventually as long as it is fermented and there is no allergy), sugar and much of the same restrictions you would find in Diane Sanfillipino’s excellent book, Practical Paleo which explains leaky gut syndrome and a host of other auto immune issues with which Dr. Price was unfamiliar. To me, Paleo goes beyond WAPF for us sickies but I hope to be able to use WAP methods and cookbooks again one day! All the best to you all!
I didn’t like something my mom said once so I disowned her. Seriously, we’re going to split hairs over one article. Like religion, no diet is perfect or will be accurately represented every time, especially when it is constantly being changed, so let’s bond around the fact that we all want a better American eating plan. It doesn’t have to be a perfect one.
I love what Sammy said! I have been Primal for a little over 2 years. Peleo seems more restrictive and I eat fermented dairy. The ‘diet’ has certainly changed from what is shown in the comparison and I see recommendations all the time to consume many good fats. I have to say though that the WAPF has a lot of good things to say too….. I think raw dairy would be awesome although tough to find unless I go up to VT. Everything I have learned reading Paleo literature (Robb, Mark, Sarah, Kressor, etc) has encouraged me to eat a lot more of all the properly raised animal products… fat and protein. I now eat liver, tons of fish and shellfish, animal fats which I always avoided before, bone broths…even a couple hearts! I wouldn’t have known to eat these things, which WAPF says Paleo discourages, unless I read Paleo literature. Then again… the WAPF has given me a few aha moments! Discovered it my reading Primal Nutrition by Schmid. So…. can you imagine if these two ‘sides’ were to get together to try and find common ground and combine their research?? Now that could be eye opening. Help Obi Wan Kenobi
How can the paleo supporters even think to say that ‘paleo’ has moved on. Moved on from what – what the paleo man ate? Move on to what? What he did not eat? So why is it still called the paleo diet?
Can you see the irony in what you are saying. These paleo gurus are making it up as they go!
There is a great talk on TED debunking the paleo diet with historical facts. He actually ate grain! At least that’s what they found on the ‘ice man’. Looks like a paleo web site directed everyone here to have a go.
how can you allow beer or gluten. grains are bad, evil. only occasional sprouted buckwheat is ok. the only ok alcohol is organic no sulfate wine. raw organic dark chocolate is healthy.
primal ‘paleo’ is basically price pottenger. allows raw pastured dairy. I eat what my body needs and what is healing for it I don’t eat what harms it.
of course the Paleo diet does recommend bone broth and animal fat do you think Cavemen were really that picky
Smart people discuss principles. Small people argue about semantics. I like the WAPF principles, but this comment section is full of small WAPF zealots arguing about semantics, which puts me off. The individual people in the unstructured “Paleo” community agree with you more than you give them credit for. See them as allies, because semantics aside, they are. They outnumber you 100 to 1 and want most of the same things you do.
Geesh people! Give it a rest.
Just stick with the Atkins diet and you can’t go wrong.
This article needs updating. It is off base on many points. WAPF and paleo advocates believe many of the same principles, few of which are acknowledged in this articles. The two paleo advocates from whom this article draws have updated and even changed some of their views. It’s irresponsible to not take the evolution of views into consideration when criticizing a nutritional perspective. For example, to suggest paleo advocates don’t preach the benefits of organ meats and animal fat is ridiculous. Friends, not enemies.
Although I believe the intentions of this article came from a good place, I respectfully think this needs to be updated. The paleo diet has evolved so much in the last couple of years, I don’t know a single person in the paleo community that follows the ‘original rules’ set by these two.
You need to look at other paleo books. The ones I’ve read advocate meat in all its dor6ms, including bone marrow offal and never a mention of lean meat.
I would agree that we should take a deeper look at what current Paleo teaching is, but the WAPF stance against these original recommendations is I believe spot-on, and we should be wary of following such recommendations. I will personally do some research to find what is being taught now, which I understand is much broader now than even a few years ago.
I think both diets are sustainable. However WAPF has the edge in my opinion. I’ve done both and just fine WAPF makes more common sense to me. It’s the only diet that doesn’t exclude any food groups. I did paleo for years and did fine for years. Obtaining optimal calcium levels might be hard on a paleo diet however not impossible. I just ate a bunch of figs, collard greens, and sprouted almond butter all of which is pretty high in calcium. I do feel this is a adequate comparison of the two diets as well. GO to the paleo website and see what Cordain recommends, these recommendations and his recommendations are pretty much verbatim. So, this articles comparison of the two is NOT biased. However, the one fatal flaw in the paleosphere is the recent (by recent I mean within the past 10 years) promotion of ketogenic and very low carb diets. I think these are the true fads and are hurting paleo’s reputation. So many people complaining about energy levels and high LDLs on the keto diet but aren’t attributing it to poor thyroid function due to very low net carb intake. Of course I’m not trying to step on anyone toes with this, a lot of people swear by keto diets. However a lot of people also have had their adrenals to crash and their thyroid to crash on the diet as well.
Oh my. I’ve read alot of misleading articles about the paleo diet, but this is by far the worst. It’s so off the mark. Please do your homework… Cordain and Wolff are advocates of the paleo diet, but are far from being the main and only spokesmen. Look further and you’ll learn what the paleo diet really is about.
Laura, I think if you take a walk through the comments you will see much of what is right with this article, and wrong with the faddish, early Paleo recommendations (ala Cordain, Cordain, etc.) and still being touted by some. Thankfully it seems the majority of the Paleo community has morphed into a more traditional, WAP-friendly diet. We are so pleased to see many, if not most, return to animal fats, dairy, fermented foods, and even properly prepared grains, though these transformations have happened with little knowledge of the early Paleo movement.
Check out “Practical Paleo” 2nd edition. This edition does recommend raw dairy and fermented cod liver oil. They seem to be more similar than not. I would say both are great sources of information, but of course to each their own and use whichever works best for your body.
Wow! The paleo groupies really got their panties in a knot. ALL THE SHOUTING IS NEITHER CONSTRUCTIVE, APPROPRIATE OR COMPLEMENTARY.
Firstly, there is no one paleo diet. There are thousands, each touted by a self-proclaimed guru. Are “paleo” principals good? Absolutely. As SHOUTED, many correlate with WAPF.
Get over it, there was obviously no slander intended or delivered. Your angry ranting makes you look like children and any arguments you present are just that, angry rants. Nutrition is not a religion. Stop acting like hateful christians and muslims, there’s no prize for converting people to your cult.
But, but I love coffee! not recommended, but I’ll keep it. I’ll keep my dark chocolate too but only on occasion. I think just adding those 2 things to a diet rich in all the other good things will be fine…….I hope. lol
Marta, we certainly will not fault you for a chocolate now and then, or a little (emphasis on “little”) coffee, as long as it isn’t causing you harm. For many, these foods are acidifying, over-stimulating and addicting, thus they are generally frowned upon. I have a bite of dark chocolate occasionally, and a little coffee sometimes helps me press on when the going is tough, but for me it is not a good thing on a regular basis.
I don’t know where you got your definition of a “Paleo Diet” ( I think the term is all over the place)
because it is nothing like any paleo Diet that I have ever been on.
The ketogenic diet that Dr. Mercola talks about in “Fat for Fuel” intersects a bit with the general definition of a Paleo diet, but it intersects even more with the Weston A Price diet IMHO.
I can eat beans and grains on the Mercola version. Right now though while I want to maximize ketosis and weight loss, I want to keep my net carb intake low enough that I stay in high state of ketosis. Say 5.0 ppm of BHB in my blood. After losing weight one can find out how many net carbs that you can eat and still stay in ketosis, but at a lower level say, 0.5 ppm BHB in your blood samples.
Some even drop out of ketosis for periods. The way that I eat following Mercola’s suggestions is very similar to the WAP diet. Perhaps the only difference is not eating beans, grains, and other carbs with abandon. I try to limit net carbs to 10-20% of my calories depending at what point I come out of ketosis.
This whole argument is pointless. From the point of view of someone following SAD or Veganism or Keto, WAPF and Paleo are more or less the same. It’s like a Buddhist watching a Methodist and a Lutheran argue over some minor point of Christian scripture.
Mercola, that man changes his mind more than the weather does. His stance on grains was to eliminate them and now he promotes them LOL. Google him.
I find the comparison of these diets to be completely inaccurate or maybe outdated. I’ve spent the last year studying the Paleo diet and what I’ve learned sounds more like the information on the left. I’ve never read Paleo should be low fat or low carbohydrate. I’ve always read the recommendation for pasture raised eggs, fermented foods and organ meats to name a few. I think this article needs to be researched again and take a look at authors such as Sarah Ballantyne and Mark Sisson. Reading this article was disappointing to say the least because I was finding a lot of other good information on this website.
Thank you for your comments Kim. At the time this article was written it was contradicting what was then the prevailing teaching coming from the Paleo base. Low-carb is taught both by Paleo Autoimmune Protocol and GAPS for gut healing, etc. and is perfectly acceptable in that regard. We would love for the Paleo community to fully cross-over to WAP as, for the most part, we embrace the same principles at heart!
What is the status on updating this article? The paleo diet does not stress “low fat” or “lean meats” only. It encourages and recognizes healthy fats and animal fat in pastured animals (those fed their natural diet). As this article stands it’s really slandering the paleo approach.
Reading all these comments was quite a head trip. The article was published in 2013 and its critics say it was outdated because the “paleo” principle had changed in the previous four years? So here in 2018, five years later, what else has changed?
The key, so it seems to me, is the term “principle” — or starting point. Mrs Fallon seems to be entirely correct in saying the *principles* between WAPF and “paleo” are very different and it makes sense to clarify those differences. If the “pales” movement has changed, it makes no difference, because she is comparing starting points.
Observation: if “paleo” has morphed into something very much like WAPF, rather than vice versa, does it not suggest that the WAPF principles are closer to objective reality?
Question (not rhetorical– I am asking for information): do “paleo” groups financially support research, as does WAPF? If not, I can understand why WAPF would be put off at a supposedly 100 times more popular movement that, in effect, removes potential financial contributors to research efforts. But if the “paleo” movement does financially support impartial, objective, research, then there is reason to hope that the two movements would move us all along toward the truth.
I think this question is the subtext of the prevailing hostility toward a slick, corporate for-profit appearing website. It may be unfair hostility but I would like to know why the “paleos” have changed their recommendations. Did they fund their own research that led them to change? Or were they compelled to change due to studies financed by a 100 times smaller non- profit corporation? Or other small entities?
For the record: I jumped on the keto bandwagon fifty years ago, before anyone had come up with the term “paleo.” No positive results. Tried virtually every diet and exercise program that came down the pike. Though I rejected SAD, I continued to battle depression, fatigue, and brain fog. Searching for help due to newly diagnosed. Ardiac condition, I stumbled on to the WAPF site ten days ago, instantly made as many WAPF-oriented changes as I could, and after four days, I was a different person. As soon as I can get organized, I’ll follow and promote WAPF assiduously.
By the way, Dr Terry Wahl, whose podcast on MS was the first thing I listebed to on WAPF, has just received a million dollar grant from The National MS Foundation to compare two different nutritional paradigms and their effects on MS patients. Though I do not know which two paradigms she will be studying, we will soon (relatively speaking) have solid science behind some food-as-medicine claims. Thanks be to God.
This site was… how do you ssay it? Relevant!!
Finally I’ve found something that helped me. Kudos!
Thank you for this recipe. We are inspired.
I actually found a great Paleo Beginners Guide
Check it out on : http://bit.ly/2Nr9p3U
I hope that helps may of interested
You cannot beat eating foods which you enjoy the most. This works if you have educated yourself about which foods are best for you.
Avoiding grains is the correct way to go. One of your “most associated” bloggers, one of the most ubiquitous ones who literally mentioned you in every single post, of the several who are “affiliated” with you regardless of whether or not they are “officially” or “actually” affiliated. Specifically, the one who recently decided to sociopathically disable all the bookmarks and purposely ensure no good information to anyone who is not extremely rich. That blogger has evaluated grains when sprouted/fermented, and has found that the maximum possible reduction is only around 60%! Much less then some grains. Therefore, the official paleo diet is apparently more correct then WAPF about this particular topic – you are apparently literally directly telling us to eat grains, rather then merely explaining the best way to eat them on a rare occasion when you eat them, as we would have all otherwise thought if not for this specific page.
Excellent article as always.
And more the trolls attack it the more I’m sure WAPF is right again.
Buenas noches 🙂 🤗 😊, estoy en este camino porque tengo la boca toda lleno de empastes dentales. Con los embarazos y lactancia materna prolongadas los empastes fueron cayendo hasta el punto de que 1 de mis dientes me tuvieron que hacer una endodoncia porque no soportaba el dolor fuerte de diente, pero, es que tengo otro empaste grande de plata que se cayó y no quiero hacerme la endodoncia, el dolor puedo controlarlo, pero quiero saber si se puede revertir los agujeros de los tornos que hacen el dentista? Porque la gran mayoría de mis dientes están agujereados por el dentista más empastados, empastes muy grandes. Ya hice el pedido de los aceites de higado de bacalao porque estoy leyendo el libro de Ramiel Nagel, me animo a seguir la dieta por mi salud y dientes. Me hice una analítica de sangre y me salió deficiencia de vitamina d, aparte de salirme problemas de tiroides anemia. En fin estoy preocupada por mis dientes. Gracias
I recently found RedPenReviews.org which “publishes the most informative, consistent, and unbiased health and nutrition book reviews available, free of charge. We exist to help you evaluate the information quality of the books you read or are thinking about buying.” (that’s from their site”.
I listened to an interview with the founders and find much credibility. The biggest takeaway is books are written to sell. Some of the “scientific evidence” on “diets” and ways of eating is based on scant evidence, limited trial conditions/controls or testing on animals regarding certain ingredients. These authors at RedPenReviews.org are trying to cut through the noise and explain there is no ONE way to eat though there are plenty of cautions on numerous dietary plans. It seems variety has always been a good idea. They talked extensively about anti-nutrients and stated cooking has been found in human research to negate the amounts of anti-nutrients necessary for MOST people to digest vegetables. Every body is different with different toxic exposures, different genes, different detoxifying pathways that work well or don’t. In other words, what works for one person could kill another. FIghting about THE best way to eat is futile. Many years ago, people had healthy discourse and exchange of ideas and each person could decide for themselves and try what works for them. Now many people feel they have the definitive evidence (NO one does) and they have to tell others how wrong they are. WAPF is doing good work to remind people to eat a variety of God-created foods. Our bodies are not machines. Each process is looking for multiple inputs. Thank you WAPF for providing information, research and opinions. I know so many who have benefited from this organization. I plan to read it all and decide for myself. That’s my right and my freedom so I plan to exercise it.