Bread CAN Be Good For You

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Why does bread get a bad rap? Maybe it’s because we’ve forgotten how to prepare it the traditional way. Courtney Queen is a sourdough bread expert and the chef behind Butter for All (a recipe website) and today she explains how bread can be good for you, particularly when it’s sourdough!

Courtney goes over how to make it, what flour is best (most digestible and nutrient-rich), whether you need a starter or not to (a-hem) get started, and how entire civilizations have been built on grains and bread.

Visit Courtney’s website: butterforall.com

Check out our sponsors Optimal Carnivore and Paleo Valley!

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Listen to the episode here

Bread CAN Be Good For You

Bread is often frowned upon if not rejected by those concerned about carb intake, high glycemic index, or gluten. What if bread isn’t bad for us? What if bread, especially when properly prepared, is nutritious and delicious? This is episode 486, and our guest is Courtney Queen. Courtney is the chef behind the Nourishing Food Recipe website Butter for All. She teaches sourdough classes in person and online.

In this episode, Courtney goes over the ins and outs of sourdough, addressing how to go about making it and why it is good for us. She also covers if a sourdough starter is needed to get started, the difference between wild yeast and what we find in packets at the grocery store, and which flours are best for ease of digestion and nutrient value. Courtney also offers insights on wheat hybridization, ancient grains, and why whole grains were once considered second class. She tells us what to look for if we decide to buy sourdough instead of baking it ourselves. Finally, she walks us through a simple sourdough bread recipe. She reminds us that entire civilizations were built on grains and bread. 

Before we get into the conversation, I want to invite you to join us at the annual Wise Traditions Conference. It will be taking place in Orlando Florida, October 25th to 27th. As far as I’m concerned, it’s going to be sunny inside and out with an amazing lineup of speakers, friendly faces around the Wise Traditions tables replete with nourishing food. Good to WiseTraditions.org to sign up today while the early bird pricing is still in effect. This is the conference that nourishes in every way. I hope to see you there.

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Visit Courtney’s website: Butter For All.

Check out our sponsors, Optimal Carnivore and Paleo Valley. 

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Introduction

Welcome to the show, Courtney.

Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. 

 

Is Sourdough The Best Bread?

I love that your blog and your account on Instagram is @ButterForAll. I’m all about the butter. Interestingly, we’re going to talk about bread. In our circles, a lot of people say sourdough is the best bread. Is it really? Tell us what you think. 

Sourdough is such a special bread because it has a lot going on. There are many layers to sourdough. It has this complexity. It’s alive. It’s fermenting away in your kitchen, and you can connect to it in a way that’s very profound and deep. It’s a very deep ancestral connection that’s different from making bread with commercial yeast. 

I have some family members that use a bread machine and use commercial yeast. Why not? Isn’t that a good place to start?

Commercial yeast has been isolated. The bread is going to be missing its actual fermentation friends like the lacto basili and the lactic acid bacteria that are doing the souring. It’s a fast way to do it. Commercial yeast is just yeast. You’re missing out on the complexity of fermentation, which gives the bread so much character, digestibility, and all the other things I’m sure we’re going to talk about more. I think it’s a good place to start.

If you’re already a bread baker with commercial yeast, then the transition to sourdough is going to be a little bit easier because you’re going to understand how dough behaves, maybe how it feels when it’s ready, or how it looks when it’s ready to be baked. Those can be helpful tricks and tips to pay attention to. When you’re doing sourdough, you’re going to be able to see the similarities there. Sourdough is a beast all on its own. It is something that takes time, patience, and practice. 

 

Fermentation Process

Let’s talk about what makes it unique as you said at the start here. That fermentation process. Talk to us about what takes place. What’s that magic bit about it that makes it ferment? Talk to us about long fermentation as well.

Fermentation works by breaking down the proteins in flour. You have yeast and bacteria working together. They’re activating enzymes. All of this is breaking down some of the complex carbohydrates, the proteins that are found in bread, and activating and freeing up the minerals and vitamins that are in the grains. It takes time for that all to happen.

When you’re using commercial yeast, you’re not going to get that long time for the bacteria to do its work and the enzymes to do their work. The process of fermentation is a slow process that allows the bread to go through all those transitions. It’s a beautiful process because it’s synergistic and it’s almost magical because it’s alive. It’s a growing, breathing, living colony of microorganisms. They are transforming the flour that you’ve ground or that you’ve bought into this beautiful bread that tastes wonderful. The taste of bread, there’s nothing like that. 

What’s coming to mind right now is in today’s society, we love shortcuts. The thing is when you take a shortcut, you might not realize what you’re missing. I heard a story one time, a friend was telling me about a river raft trip that she took. She was thinking, “Maybe it would be better if we had the guy leave the boat on the van and then bring it down to the bottom of the river, and then have us hop in a few feet from shore and forget the whole process.”

It wouldn’t be half as fun or half as magical or half as interesting. Who knows what they’re missing because they decided to take a shortcut? In that same way, maybe our ancestors didn’t know all of these effects of the fermentation process, but they did know that the finished product was something very special and nourishing. 

They knew how it made them feel. If your grains are soaked, sprouted, or fermented, they’re a lot easier to chew. There are lots of populations that have a lot of wear on their teeth from chewing grains. We’re going to break these down a little bit before we’re going to grind it. We’re going to soak it, and in that soaking process, something magical happens. The yeast that is on the grain and the lactic acid bacteria that are on the grain come alive in the water because the water is the mechanism that allows these things to start growing. 

I want to ask you a very naive question. You mean that yeast isn’t something that you buy in a little packet at the grocery store. There is something such as wild yeast. 

Yeast is attracted to sugars, and you see them on fruit. If you see that white bloom that’s on a grape, that’s how wine is made. The yeast is already there on the grape. That white film that’s on the skin of the grape is yeast and they’re attracted to grain. They’ll be on the hall of the grain and they’re going to wait for that grain to be in the ideal condition where they can start to multiply and continue with their species.

It’s already there. It’s on the grain, and that is how you start your sourdough starter, by adding water to flour, preferably whole wheat flour that’s been ground so that it has the hull where the yeast and the bacteria are found. When you add the water, it starts the fermentation process and then cultivates that starter further by feeding it and renewing it, which is a way to have a perpetual source of wild yeast that you can always utilize in baking. 

This is a wilder process than I realized. It’s like all this yeast and bacteria in the atmosphere is ready to go once we want to collaborate with it. Instead, I feel like we’re trying to get rid of it some of the time. Do you know what I mean? 

People are obsessed with these sterile and clean environments because they’re afraid. There’s a preconceived idea that bacteria might be bad, or even yeast. You don’t want it around in your house, but it’s already there. There’s no escaping the yeast and bacteria that are in our environment. Let’s make friends with it. Let’s use it to our benefit. Cultivating a sourdough starter is a way to do that. I’ve had my sourdough for 22 years. It’s grown with me, and we’ve gone through a lot of different changes where I was using it more or using it less, but it’s always bounced back and been there for me when I was ready to bake bread. It is a way to have a relationship with the environment. 

 

I think you implied this earlier, but I want to circle back to it. Do we need a sourdough starter to get started, or can we make one from scratch? Can you tell us a little bit about that process? 

Having a sourdough starter is probably the easiest way to make wild yeast-leavened bread. You have a starter that you’re feeding and it’s growing and it’s strong. It’s active and it’s ready to be used for bread baking. There are other ways. If you’re a brewer, you could use the ale barn, which is the yeasty bubbles that come off of the top of the beer. That was used a lot in medieval Europe as a leaveler for their bread. 

There’s also fruit water. You could potentially do a fruit water fermentation where you put those yeasty fruits in water and let them ferment until it’s all bubbly and then use that to bake bread. I’ve seen interesting results with that. Maintaining a sourdough starter is probably the most functional and reliable way to keep some yeast in your home for baking if you don’t want to go the commercial yeast route. 

If you’re a newbie, maybe like I did, go to a sourdough workshop and get a starter from a friend. That reminds me, didn’t there used to be a trend of some Amish friendship bread where you would get the starter and pass it around? Is that what it was based on? Was it a sourdough starter? 

Yes. The Amish bread is a little different because they feed it typically with some sugar and milk. It’s more of a rich dough, but it is a perpetual culture of yeast. They’re taking a little bit of that dough and passing it to a friend and it’s traveling around and multiplying, having lots of offspring all over. The Amish friendship bread is a beautiful tradition. It’s lovely and it’s a sourdough starter fed with a little additional milk and sugar of some sort. 

The hitch here for some of us, present company included, is keeping the starter happy and alive. Talk to us about the care. Let’s say I go to this workshop. I get the little starter in a jar. How often am I supposed to feed it and why? 

Your little jar of sourdough starter is a mixture of flour, water, wild yeast, and bacteria. What the yeast and bacteria are doing in there is eating the carbohydrates, breaking down the starch, and making it a happy environment where they can grow, reproduce, and multiply. You want to continue that process so you don’t want them to run out of food. You’ll see your starter once it’s fed, it’ll go through a cycle where there’s a little bit of a lag time where the yeast is starting to get going, and then it starts fermenting more rapidly. You’ll see it rising in the jar.

It’s multiplying. The yeast are budding, which is where they make little dots. They make little offshoots of themselves that are genetically identical to the yeast cell that is producing them, and they start growing like mad. The yeast is growing in there and its byproduct is carbon dioxide. It’s making that gas as it’s growing. That’s the part of the sourdough starter process where you’re seeing a lot of rise, a lot of bubbles, and a lot of gas being made.

Because the yeast is multiplying quickly, it’s producing a lot of gas, and then it will slow down. It will get to the peak of the jar. It’s running out of food and it’s slowing down. It’s going into a process where it’s making its alcohol. It’s acetic acid and it starts slowing down its metabolic process. Eventually, if it’s left to starve, it will create a wall around each yeast cell. They turn themselves into spores and they go into almost a hibernation mode because they’ve run out of food. 

If you get to that point, it’s rather tricky to revive your starter. People think, “I’ve killed my starter.” I hear it all the time. It’s hard to kill a starter. The yeast doesn’t die. They go into this spore state where their cellular wall is very thick. They’re going to wait until they have some better conditions for growth. Keeping your starter happy is about feeding it before it goes into that state of starvation. You want to make sure that there’s food on hand for that yeast so that it’s easy to bring it back when you’re ready to bake with it. 

 

Keeping your sourdough starter happy is about feeding it before it starves.

 

The way my sourdough instructor put it is that it’s equal parts flour and water. It’s not super complicated that you feed the starter. 

That’s what we call 100% hydration. The flour weight is identical to the water weight and your flour is hydrated to 100%, and then bread dough is usually a lower hydration, between 60% and 80% or something like that. You can also keep your starter thicker. If it’s running out of food quickly and you find that it’s getting sour and over-fermenting, you might feed it a little bit more. You might give it a little extra flour. It is glistening to the starter watching how it’s behaving.

I didn’t know anything about hydration levels when I started baking sourdough. For the first ten years, I kept a very liquid starter that was almost the consistency of a very thin crepe batter or something like that. It was very thin and it was very sour because it was thin. It didn’t have a lot of food, so the souring process was happening a lot faster. There are a lot of different ways you can do it. In that way, you can manipulate sourdough based on what your preferences are. If you want sweeter bread, you might use a thicker less hydrated starter. If you want sour bread, you might use a thinner more hydrated starter that’s more fermented. 

Speaking of sour, one of the hallmarks I used to think identified sourdough bread was its sour taste. I came to find out that in the grocery stores to mimic that taste, they’ll simply add vinegar to a product that’s not been made in this old fermentation style. 

That is true, Commercial bakeries don’t like the unpredictability of sourdough because it’s a living thing. It takes its time. Sometimes it rises. Sometimes it doesn’t. A commercial bakery doesn’t have the patience to deal with that. They’re going to add commercial yeast and then they’re going to add some souring agent to the bread to make it taste like sourdough. People think sourdough has to be sour. The sourdough is a process. It’s not the flavor of bread. People will see something like sourdough cinnamon rolls and they’ll think, “That’s gross. That doesn’t work. Why would you want a sour cinnamon roll?” We’re talking about the process of leavening the bread, not the flavor of the bread. 

 

Coming up, Courtney explains why sourdough recipes should be considered a guide and what needs to be taken into consideration when you go to make adjustments.

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I know I’ve had sourdough pancakes, but I think even a sourdough bagel. I’ve had sourdough all sorts of things. 

There are so many different things. I think I have over 60 sourdough recipes now on Butter For All or my own original recipes that I’ve published. They work in my kitchen. I do want to make this disclaimer generally, and it’s a good one to follow for everybody. Sourdough recipes should be looked at as a guide because your starter is going to be different than my starter. Your climate is going to be different. Your flour is going to be different. When I say four hours for bulk fermentation, yours might take eight. It’s about understanding how sourdough works to make those adjustments. It’s a lot of intuition, a lot of practice, and a lot of dedication to watching your sourdough and baking with it often enough that you understand how it’s reacting to its environment. 

Are you saying that the climate in which we prepare the sourdough makes a difference? Is that one of the factors? I’m thinking of San Francisco sourdough, for example. 

Absolutely. I think with San Francisco sourdough, people have come to identify that it was a certain strain of yeast and bacteria working together. It’s going to be different in everybody’s starter. That’s something important to understand. We’re not all dealing with the same strains of wild yeast and we’re not all dealing with the same strains of lactic acid bacteria. Your starter is going to have different yeast and bacteria, and my starter is going to have different yeast and bacteria. That is one of the distinctions. 

The other distinction is what ingredients you use. The different kinds of flour that you use are going to have different results, different flavor profiles, different timing, and all the variables with sourdough, and then also your climate. If you live in a warm area, you’re down in Florida and it’s humid and warm, your sourdough is going to maybe work super quickly and you’re going to have to adjust your recipes. If you’re somewhere very chilly and your house is cool on the cooler side, you might have longer and slower ferments and you might have to make some adjustments. 

 

Best Flour For Sourdough

Talk to us about the best flour to use for sourdough. I know there’s a lot of interest right now in ancient grains like einkorn and kamut.

First, let’s start with the most important thing, which is sourcing flour. It’s important to our health as a community, as a family, and as the world that we’re supporting the right kinds of farmers and grain growers. Looking for something that’s organic and regeneratively farmed is probably the most important. Beyond that, there are all of these different kinds of wheat.

Einkorn is the grandmother of wheat. It has never been changed throughout history. All of the modern wheat are offspring of einkorn and emmer that have been hybridized over the thousands of years that we’ve been growing grain. They’ve been changed with different strains of wild grasses and different strains of wheat coming in to make different kinds of grains.

There are many things to choose from, first of all, but those ancient grains that are further back on the wheat family tree are typically more nutritious and have smaller grains that are more packed with nutrients and healthy fats. We’ve gotten away from that because there was always this desire for white bread. I think the elites thought, “Peasants could eat the whole grain and we’re going to eat the white beautiful starch in the center that makes these fine delicate flours and pastries.”

Whole grains were looked at as maybe second class for a long time, and breeding and wheat hybridization followed that trend. They were breeding wheat for bigger grains with more endosperm, which is the starchy part in the center so they could have a better yield of white flour. If we look back at the ancient grains, they’re beautifully complex with a multitude of more vitamins and more flavor. It’s fun to play around with those wheats.

I’ve been cultivating an einkorn starter now for over a year. I took my original starter and created a baby starter, and I feed it only with einkorn because there are a lot of people in my community who are catching on. Einkorn is easier to digest. They may be gluten-sensitive, then I can provide some baked goods that are 100% einkorn to the community and people enjoy that. It’s a very fun experience because you get to work with a grain that you know is ancient. 

I wanted to ask you if the ancient grains have gluten which is easier on the body. You already answered that question, but can you tell us a little bit more about that?

There are two kinds of protein in wheat. There’s the glutenin and the gliadin. Gluten is responsible for elasticity. The way that bread bounces back when you’ve stretched it, when you’re shaping bread and it recoils and comes back together like an elastic band. The gliadin is responsible for extensibility, which is the ability of the dough to relax, spread out, and stretch. These are two different kinds of protein, and they’re found in different combinations and different kinds of wheat. Some of the ancient grains have less of the gluten protein and more of the gliadin protein. They’re in different proportions. It makes them act a little bit differently when you’re using them. It also makes the digestibility a little bit easier. If people are gluten-sensitive, a grain that has less gluten and more gliadin is easier to digest. 

Speaking of digestion, I was at an event where the chef said, “This bread I made is double fermented. It has gone through a double fermentation process.” Have you ever heard of that? What does that even mean? 

I don’t think I’m familiar with it, except perhaps the flour might have been fermented prior. I’m not sure what he was referring to, but that’s very interesting and I’d like to learn more about it. I do a long fermentation. He could mean one fermentation and then going into the refrigerator for a second fermentation that’s longer or something like that because there are a lot of ways to manipulate the fermentation times. 

He knew people who said they couldn’t normally tolerate even sourdough bread, but his bread that had gone through the double fermentation process, they could. I’ll put you in touch with this guy. 

I’m interested. I want to know more about that process. That sounds cool. 

 

Sourdough Bread Recipe Steps

I know this is hard but can you walk us through what is required if we’re going from starter to sourdough bread? What are some of the steps in a standard sourdough bread recipe? 

It’s easy because there are only three ingredients, flour, water, and salt. Without the salt, your bread is not going to have very much flavor. With your sourdough starter, the two extra ingredients are yeast and bacteria. You are going to mix those together. What that does is it hydrates the flour. It allows the yeast and bacteria to start moving around in the flour and growing, and creating an environment that they love, and they’re going to start fermenting.

A very important step is called bulk fermentation. It’s the time after mixing when you let that yeast and bacteria do its work. It’s bulk fermentation. It can be four hours for some grains that ferment quicker up to twelve or more hours for grains that ferment slower. Bulk fermentation is a waiting period to wait until your dough has been developed enough that the yeast is producing enough gas to rise the bread when you go to bake it. 

After mixing, you go through the bulk fermentation. When it’s nice and bubbly and you see that the dough is full of gas, then you’re going to do the next step, which is shaping. Usually, there’s a little bit of a punch down where you’re releasing some of those gases out of there and shaping your bread in whatever way you want it to be shaped. It then goes through a second rise, which is called the second proof. It’s another time of fermentation to allow the bread to start building up those gases again, filling those empty spaces under the gluten structure with gas, and making those bubbles that make the crumb of the bread nice, light, and airy.

You go through the second proofing, during which, you’re going to preheat your oven and get your pans ready or however you want, and then bake the bread, which is generally done in a nice hot oven. You get that nice caramelization of the crust and all the flavors and get a good oven spring. When those yeast get hit with that warm temperature down in the center of the bread, they go, “This is awesome.” They get happy and they release a whole bunch of gas, and then unfortunately they perish. 

They had a good life. I’m thinking about this day and age when many of us are busy multitasking. Does the sourdough bread process require our full attention or can we do something while we’re waiting in between the two rises, for example? 

Absolutely. That was a very hands-off process during that time. You’ve mixed your dough. You may go through a little period of kneading or stretch and fold to build up some gluten because when you’re mixing the dough, gluten strands are forming. At first, all the proteins are jumbled up, but the natural way they want to be is to line up in a nice row and make this big net structure. As you’re doing the kneading and the stretching and folding, what you’re doing is you’re allowing all those gluten to line up.

Maybe you’ve done that part, but then the bulk fermentation, once you know your sourdough starter and once you know how long it takes bread to rise in your house, I typically leave mine overnight. This is a period where I let it rise in a cool environment. It’s cooler in the house and I’m sleeping. It doesn’t need any work. The yeast and bacteria are doing their thing. When I get up in the morning, I go through those further processes of shaping and baking. I think there are ways to make it fit your schedule. 

 

Buying Vs. Making Sourdough

Speaking of schedule, can’t we just buy sourdough bread? What would we be missing if we chose to buy it instead of making it ourselves from your perspective? 

You’d be missing a connection with the dough, which is a beautiful connection to have. You become a friend with your sourdough starter, and it becomes a family member. A lot of times, you give it to your friends and it becomes their family member. You’re missing out on this community of sourdough. If you’re in a position where you’re busy, there are a ton of micro bakeries popping up everywhere, cottage industry bakers, and they’re usually very devoted to their craft. They’re making it in their home and selling it directly to consumers in their community.

That’s a beautiful way to engage with the sourdough community if you don’t have time to bake it yourself because you’re supporting somebody who in turn is supporting their local mills or their local farmers. It’s a beautiful way to support everyone in the community. There are also bakeries, and a lot of bakeries have sourdough bread available.

Find a local bakery that’s doing it the right way. You can ask questions like, “Does this go through a long fermentation process? Are you using wild yeast or are you adding commercial yeast?” Based on those answers, you can make a decision, “Is this the right bread for you to have? Is the nutritional profile of the grain what you want?” We haven’t touched on that yet, but there are so many ways that fermented bread is better for you. 

Do you want to go into that? Tell us a little bit about what we should be looking for. 

That long fermentation process, as we talked about, is breaking down proteins. The gluten and the gliadin that we talked about earlier are being broken down in the process. It’s making it a lot easier to digest. Also, when the enzymes activate through fermentation or stopping the grain from holding onto its nutrients. They’re letting that grain free up all of the vitamins and minerals in the grain.

The lactic acid bacteria that’s there plays a huge role. That’s the bacteria that’s in your sourdough starter. The sour of that acid is doing a lot of that breakdown work. When you’re looking for bread, you want to ask those questions. Is it long fermented? Is it naturally fermented? You’re going to get the most nutritional value from the grains that you’re eating. There’s no reason not to. White bread is pretty devoid of nutrition. 

Is that why people say all bread is bad? 

I think that and also the farming practices, the industrial monoculture practices that are being performed here, especially in America, and the spraying of glyphosate on commercial wheat crops as a drying agent before harvest, which is terrible. That bread is bad. You don’t want to eat that. It’s doing all kinds of things inside your gut. That’s where all these gluten sensitivities are coming from. The permeated gut from glyphosate is causing a leaky gut.

Those proteins that are in the flour, your body doesn’t love them. They go into your bloodstream through your gut, and your body launches this histamine response or this immune response and makes you feel terrible because those proteins are getting through. That bread is bad, but sourdough from a regenerative farm, from a local miller who knows how to keep the integrity of the grain by cool, grinding, slow milling, those are going to be huge benefits. Civilizations were built on grains. Ancient Egyptians and the Romans lived on grains, bread, and ale, and huge civilizations that were very successful. I don’t think we should demonize grain. It’s part of our heritage, but learning what grains are and how they’re grown is the key. 

 

I wanted to ask if you had a story of anyone that you have shared your recipes with who found joy in eating and maybe making sourdough bread from ancient grains and were able to not only tolerate but enjoy sourdough long fermented bread. 

All the time, even myself. I didn’t realize it, but I have grain sensitivity. Throughout my whole childhood, I had the little keratosis pilaris on my arms. These are a sign of not being able to break down the proteins. When I stopped eating conventional grain and started eating long-fermented sourdough, those went away. That wasn’t even until I was in my 30s.

It took a long time because for a long time, even after starting a sourdough starter, I was still using conventional grains, making pastries and things with unleavened grain and unleavened flour. When I stopped all of that, my own health improved and has even improved more after eating einkorn because that is the next level of easier digestibility. My daughter has the same sensitivities. For her and our family, I typically bake with einkorn now. 

 

Recommendation For Health Improvement

This has been a fantastic conversation. I have one more question to pose to you. If the audience could do one thing to improve their health, what would you recommend that they do? 

I would say slow down. Slow your food system down. Sourdough is slow and sourdough takes time, but it’s a beautiful time to connect with your food and to make something that is truly nutritious, that is truly going to satiate you on more than one level. Use your intrinsic intuition and ancestral roots and get involved in the food process because slow food is wonderful, beautiful food. Making it slowly, eating it slowly, enjoying that time, and not demonizing food are important. It’s going to have a different vibrational energy if you are giving it that time and respect, and putting your good energy into it. Slow down and start a sourdough. 

 

Sourdough is slow and takes time, but it’s a beautiful time to connect with your food.

 

Wonderful words to end on. Thank you so much, Courtney. It’s been a pleasure. 

It’s my pleasure too. Thank you.

 

About Courtney Queen

Courtney Queen is the chef and author behind the scenes of the nourishing-food recipe website Butter For All. Courtney was given a sourdough starter over twenty years ago while in culinary school. She was immediately intrigued by the magic and spontaneity of fermentation. Over the next two decades she taught herself the art of sourdough baking through trial and error and incorporated this wild-yeast fermentation into her everyday life, as well as her professional cooking career in San Francisco. She now teaches sourdough classes in-person and online, has a sourdough consultation service, and publishes her own sourdough recipes and guides on Butter For All. Courtney also bakes and sells artisan, organic sourdough bread for her cottage bakery business, Mountain Sister Baking Company in Springfield, Oregon.

 

 

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